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well now it's a battle of opinions...
I mentioned before, there are protestors that are realy brain-dead, but in the post on this website it appeared that you ment all protestors (wich is not limited to active protestors) are brain-dead.
I have to admitt i'm impressed with your insight, i've never heard a debate with such high standarts (not surprising if you debate with a bunch of 16-year olds from hishschool lol). Except mattlocks post, maybe, which realy had nothing to do with me or my point of view, and the comparison with me and the UN was rather irrelevant agression...
Anyway, you helped me to get more understanding from your side, even though i still have doubts. You can oppose the war, but you shouldn't oppose the troops fighting it, or do stupid stuff like the guys on the pictures... There defenetly is a good cause after all, even thoguh i have to disagree with too many arguments that are made (not neccessarily in this forum, but lots of guys in the news and even in higher offices state the wrong points, i think). I didn't meen to piss anyone off (i obviously did, tho lol), especially not someone serving.
But we shouldn't forget that if we judge someone for an opinion, we are not better than saddam. Maybe we can all be friends after all...
i better stop before it gets too cheesy...

Freak

"But we shouldn't forget that if we judge someone for an opinion, we are not better than saddam."

Good point.

FREAK,WE LIKE A GOOD HEATED DEBATE,

BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MAKE-UP OF THE BOARD.
BUT WHEN EZYJACK MADE HIS COMMENTS ABOUT HISTORY LACKING HERE OR BUYING THE WHITE HOUSE LINE,THAT DESERVES A RESPONSE.

LOOK AT IT THIS WAY,
ANTI-WAR SUPPORTERS ARE LOOK AS WHAT PETE POSTED ON THIS THREAD,
PRO-SUPPORTERS BY EZYJACK ARE BUSH AND RUMMSFIELD LOVERS

BUT IT TAKES BOTH TO COME TO GETHER TO SUPPORT THE TROOPS WHO GIVE US THIS RIGHT.
AFTER ITS OVER WE CAN ALL PLAY HISTORY 101,AND DECIDIE.IF WE WIN BIG,YOU WONT FIND A ANTI-WAR SUPPORTER
IF IT COST MORE THAN WE THOUGHT,MORE WILL BE SAYING THEY WERE AGAINST IT.
WE'LL LET HISTORY DECIDE BUT RIGHT NOW ITS THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT DONT EVEN LET ME GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO ONE SPITTING,STANDING ON THE FLAG OR CALLING ONE OF THEM "MURDER" BECAUSE I'LL DO MY IMPRESSION OF A HOG ON THEM!!!




PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

I couldn't agree more...
the war already turned out better than i expected, but
the way its presented by the media and the white house is still pretty bad though (it looks and tastes too much like propaghanda to me)lol.
I don't believe history is a factor that playes a role to judge
current conflicts. In my oppinion the fact that saddam used chem weapons or attacked neighboring nations is not conclusive about his motives today (now we have the no-fly zones, and a saddam that is more aware of consequences, and we had weapon inspections till the '95s, well after the chem attacks). Neither is the fact that we supported Iraq before '91 or even the fact that the US was the first to use WMDs relevant for todyas judging about the future. History CAN however help to determine wether a conflict was successful or not, and it does a better job than smartassing or predicting.
Constructive Criticism, however (what i consider myself doeing) is still better than destructive protests or blind following of what you are told to do (which you are obviously NOT doeing, as you guys have proven in your replies). You have as justified reasons to support or even contribute to the war, as i have reasons to critizise it. It is not a personal matter, just a matter of opinion.

Freak

"In my oppinion the fact that saddam used chem weapons or attacked neighboring nations is not conclusive about his motives today (now we have the no-fly zones, and a saddam that is more aware of consequences, and we had weapon inspections till the '95s, well after the chem attacks)."
So by this qoute am I to safely assume that you think there is a "kindler, gentler Sadam?" Get real! This man kills with chemicals and is not beyond using them now! He isnt going to change. The man idolizes Josef Stalin for crying out loud!!!!!! All the chemical weapons inspectors did was give him a chuckle and cause him to be more creative in the way he hides the WMD. Perhaps you need to be reminded how far back "WMD" go? Mustard and phosgene gases were used in WWI, they are nothing new.

"Insert trite message here"

"I don't believe history is a factor that playes a role to judge
current conflicts."

To paraphrase Winston Churchill.....Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

"Insert trite message here"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>mattlocks post, maybe, which realy had nothing to do with me or my point of view, and the comparison with me and the UN was rather irrelevant agression...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Freak there are only two examples that I can find of times the that UN Security Council has agreed to go to war. Korea (USSR walked out), Gulf War One (Russia and China Abstained). Otherwise they were paralyzed by there own self interest. For France to call us unilateral is the kettle calling the pot black. France immediately after WW2 went about rebuilding its empire, that it had lost. At times force fully. Read this link http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0313/p07s01-woiq.html

My personal belief is the UN is worthless as a world security organization, but possibly useful as an humanitarian organization. There are too many divergent interest insure security, Syria who is on the security council came out and said it is in there interest that Iraq win.

Freak at some time debate must end allowing men of goodwill and action to solve the problem. My problem with some one says they are a debater is that they have will to act. It would kind of be like ten men on a sinking boat, debating the best method to get rid of the water bucket or pump--that ship is doomed.

The only lesson history has taught is that man forgets all of history's lessons.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Mattlock, i actually agree with most of your statements about the UN, i just don't get what this has to do with me...it seems you want to imply, that im a bad person, because i'm enjoying debate.
And History did give us lessons we indeed have to look at, both supporting and oposing the war.
1st, saddam realy is a plain bad person, and that we should indeed prevent terror before it happens. How we do that is a different story, because
2ndly
The issue that started the whole fundamental movment and islamofacism was the US and british involvment. If the involvement was necessary and right is a different debate, but it is a fact that that is a major root of all evil. That is the basis on which i build my reasoning that this war is (or at least likely to be) counteracting the war on terror.
I posted more about this under a different topic.

Concerning the demonstrations: All we can do now is hope that the war goes well both militarily and politically, no matter what the opinion.

-Freak

Actually freak, you are wrong in yout assumption.

It was not the US and Britian that began the radical movement of Islam, but the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.



"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

interesting,
well that's something i have to research...
every historian i've seen or met so far tells me differently
doesn't quite make sense to me, either, since russia never was attacked by islamic fundamentalists, except for the chechnya issue...
i'll give it a shot though. Maybe u have some info about that? You seem to smart to be bs'ing...there has to be something i missed.<img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Freak

Historians are also natoriously short-sighted and often hold either biased or revisionist views. Fact is, Muslim extremist groups have been pretty pissy since about 500 AD.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Or, maybe since the birth of Islam.

LOL, 500 AD is the birth of Islam.

You remember the invasion of Afghanistan by the soviets?
You remember how all the islamic Mujahadeen from around the world flocked there to fight the russians?
Over the course of the next 7 years the Islamofascists organized a world wide network of supporters, suppliers, and oh yes....Followers.

You may recognize this group. They formed the roots of Al Qaeda.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

hm...yes you a right, but the hatred today is aimed towards us,
for the reasons i mentioned earlier. It's not our fault though, since i think most we did was right over there, but it should still be considered when aking new actions.

Well, in all honesty, we have really screwed the various Muslims over at different times, but we have also greatly helped them many more times.

They seem to only remember the negatives.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Its a fundamental tenet of the Islamic faith.....to kill all those that dont or refuse to belive. Go to the waki-paki site and check it our for yourself. They are there and they mean business. Doesnt really matter who you are. The US is just too easy to hate. We are big and we are everywhere. Opportunities abound!

"face it....perhaps your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others!"

True...it's certain kind of 'envie' to it.
I know that even in germany, where i'm from,
many are unreasonable regarding the US. Even within the US
we find many 'anti-flags'. For me thats where the point of
peaceful protest is crossed. I have doubts about the war,
but i'd hope i'm more reasonable than those protestors and
demonstrators, which can't demonstrate peacefully. The extremists
and terrorists are only one step further in that direction.
I can understand why this movement exists, but i don't have any appreciation for their moitves, and definetly not their employed means.

[quote]
LOL, 500 AD is the birth of Islam.

You remember the invasion of Afghanistan by the soviets?
You remember how all the islamic Mujahadeen from around the world flocked there to fight the russians?
Over the course of the next 7 years the Islamofascists organized a world wide network of supporters, suppliers, and oh yes....Followers.

You may recognize this group. They formed the roots of Al Qaeda.
-----------------------

It's called Blowback too. We basically trained many of Al Qaeda when they fought as Mujahadeen. We allowed SAVAK to reign terror on Iranians and that blew up in our face in 79. Them am sure most of you knew our support of Saddam until August of 1990.

US has backed some really nasty folks in the past and it comes back to bite us in the ass.

We still have 11,000 odd troops in Afghan and they aren't picking up much PR.

Jack

The alternative to both US actions were War.

We all know what would have happened in a war with the Reds, and we all know nobody in the world would have supported us in a war on the Shah of Iran.

There is no winning in these matters, most people fail to realize that.

"US Army Snipers- One shot, one kill"

[quote]

There is no winning in these matters, most people fail to realize that.

----------

That's the problem, Yanks love to go to war. Beirut, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War, Afghan and now the Iraq War.

There has been a disconnect between the civilians and Congress since we went AVF. How many Critters in Congress have a kin in the Iraq War? A couple maybe.

Jack

That's Irrelevant.

The US Armed forces are united in their belief in the righteousness of their cause.

It doesn't matter if senators sons die, what matters is that the sons and daughters that are dying believe in the cause, and they do.

"US Army Snipers- One shot, one kill"

<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> I agree, snipe (for once, lol).
It's rather simplistic to beleive, americans LOVE war, and that's why they do it. They have several reasons, and usually good ones!
Wether you agree them or not.

And, with that apparent enjoyment of war, you'd think the idiots would stop giving us excuses to go after them. Motards...

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Nah, they're funktards Horrido

"US Army Snipers- One shot, one kill"