| Warthog Territory Forums http://www.warthogterritory.net/forum/ |
|
| Who'd win in a dogfight, F-16 vs A-10 http://www.warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2779 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Weasel [ 16 Mar 2003, 02:12 ] |
| Post subject: | |
Have these units ever faced off during training, exercises, etc? --- Pete Nelson Your Warthog Territory Webmaster |
|
| Author: | AIR2MUD [ 16 Mar 2003, 08:18 ] |
| Post subject: | |
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Have these units ever faced off during training, exercises, etc? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> I kicked the crap out of a Viper based at Fort Smith, Arkansas, while I was still at the FTU. Have some great gun-camera footage as my FEDS (Simulated bullets on the HUD) rip through him...a tracking guns shot is so much more difficult that you can imagine. However, this guy had decided to try and slow down and fight me on my terms, so I made him pay for it. He was also carrying two bags of gas, which limited him somewhat. The answer to the topic of discussion (F-16 vs. A-10 DACM) is: it depends. It depends on so many variables, it would be hard to list them all. I will, however, list some of the major ones. The answer to your question about facing off in training exercises is hell yes. You can be the king-kong ACM guy in your A-10, F-16, F-15, F/A-18 (you get the picture) squadron, but when faced with a relatively unknown quantity (a pilot and aircraft you've never flown against before), you really learn how to push your aircraft and attempt to drive the fight on your terms. That's why we have Red Flag, so we can fly and fight against dissimilar aircraft in a realistic combat training environment. Some squadrons with dissimilar aircraft that are based close to one another will arrange for DACM (dissimilar air combat maneuvering) training in the MOA/Restricted Area/Warning Area/etc. The scheduler from one unit calls up the other and makes the arrangements; the day of the mission the pilots call each other and brief the safety issues and other restrictions for the mission. Then they meet up out in the area and turn and burn. When it comes down to an F-16 vs. an A-10, one of the obvious variables are the aircraft themselves. Is the Viper clean, or does he have external fuel tanks? Is the A-10 clean, or does he have TERs and a practice Maverick, plus ECM pod and AIM-9 DRA hanging on the airplane? How much internal gas is each bird carrying? Is the fight down low, where the A-10 performs best, or at mid altitude, where it doesn't (the Viper's performance isn't hampered nearly as bad with an increase in altitude like the A-10's is)? Another thing to consider are the pilots. Has this Viper guy ever fought an A-10 before (in my case, I later found out, the answer was no)? Has the A-10 guy ever fought a Viper before (I never had)? Is the F-16 guy an ex-A-10 guy, or vice versa? Did the Viper pilot eat a bran muffin and two cups of coffee during the brief, and not have time to make a bomb run to the bathroom before stepping out to the jet? How good is each pilot's vision? Which pilot is in better physical shape? Which guy has more time in his particular platform? As you can see, the variables are almost endless. Having said all of the above, I can honestly say that I got lucky when I 'killed' the Viper. Can't forget about luck. We had practiced a few beyond visual range setups, and my lead had directed us through the procedures for a radar missile defense. The Viper was by himself, so it was the two of us against him. Every time he closed to visual range, he would engage my lead and I. The trick was picking him up visually...an F-16 is a relatively small jet. Most times I was the first to get a 'tally', and I think it was due to the fact that I was fresh out of UPT and IFF where you fly the T-38. My eyeballs were caged to looking for small jets. The earlier you pick up the bandit, the earlier you can start to maneuver against him. In each engagement, we wound up killing him. He seemed reluctant to do the typical fast-mover tactics of a slashing attack...tap the Hogs and blow through, either accelerating down and away, or going vertical where we don't have the energy to go with him. He was slowing down, playing more on our terms than his. It really wasn't fair anyway, since he was also out numbered (in reality, very rarely is there going to be only one guy...and if you only see one guy, that probably means that his wingman is about to schwack you, so keep looking). So after a few BVR sets, hitting the merge and mixing it up a bit, the Viper called and said he had enough gas for one more engagement before he would hit Bingo gas and have to go home. My lead asked if he would do a 1 v. 1 with me. He said sure, so I maneuvered to a line abreast, 6000' formation on the Viper. He called, "Check away," and we each turned away about 30 degrees...when I called, "Padlocked," meaning that my eyeballs were glued on him and if I took them off I would lose sight, he called, "Turn in, Fight's on!" When we pointed at each other, I started a descent to ramp down and get some speed...we each were practicing locking up the Sidewinder and taking shots as we closed, but didn't call the shots since the point was to mix it up a bit. Before we passed, but when I knew he wouldn't be able to point and get a guns shot at me, I started a hard pull into the vertical, and he nose countered some by coming up with me. As we passed, we put on our best turns, and the dance began. Once again, he stuck right in there with me, trying to make square corners in the sky by keeping the burner lit and powering his way around the circle. The fight was fairly neutral at first, each of us not giving an inch, and each countering what the other was attempting to do. Finally, I saw my opportunity. After circling around and around (and losing almost 5,000' in the process), he had worked so hard to keep my nose from coming on that he had bled his speed down below the corner velocity of the Viper. Corner velocity is the speed at which best rate and min radius of turn occur for a given set of atmospheric conditions. He was going to have to extend to get some of that energy back. Meanwhile, I had maintained my energy fairly well, and had some extra knots that I could trade for nose position. I saw him crack his wings slighty, which meant his radius of turn was going to increase, and his rate would decrease...and that was it. He was attempting to let off on the G, get some airspeed back, and put a hurt on this Hog. I immediately cracked my wings, coming out of 70 or 80 degrees of bank to execute a very aggressive high yo-yo. When he saw what I was doing, he tried to get into a turn again, but he was way too slow. I had anticipated correctly that he would go back into a defensive turn, so I flew my jet to where I thought he would be, not to the point where he would have been if he had continued his extension. As my nose came on to him, he started a guns jink to try and spoil my shot...but he had slowed down so much that he simply waffled in the air, not really moving the jet anywhere. I saddled up, and squeezed the trigger. I called "Guns tracking kill, F-16," and we terminated the engagement. Lots of fun. Like I said, I got lucky. He played on our terms, not his, and paid for it. I bet he doesn't do that again with an A-10. More often than not, F-16s beat up on A-10s. They have a radar missile, we don't. They practice BFM/ACM/DACM a lot more than we do. It's not our job to kill the enemy one at a time, we kill them wholesale. We practice mainly for defensive purposes, but you can't go into the fight thinking in that manner. We'd rather run or hide from an air-to-air threat, and let the F-15s and F-16s deal with them. However, if a fast-mover somehow gets in close enough to tangle with us, and is stupid enough to try and stick around, he already has made his first mistake. Hope this helps. ATTACK! |
|
| Author: | TheBigThug [ 18 Mar 2003, 12:27 ] |
| Post subject: | |
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I kicked the crap out of a Viper based at Fort Smith, Arkansas, while I was still at the FTU. Have some great gun-camera footage as my FEDS (Simulated bullets on the HUD) rip through him...a tracking guns shot is so much more difficult that you can imagine. However, this guy had decided to try and slow down and fight me on my terms, so I made him pay for it. He was also carrying two bags of gas, which limited him somewhat. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> Yeah he was definately limited by the FLCS for CAT3 Ordnance Mode. The extra weight does not help as well... I think this really evened the playing field. The Viper pilot was clearly not prepared for a one circle fight with tanks.. How were the turns? Nose high, Low any yo-yo's in between? Flat 1 circle fight is suicide. Nose high turns are tighter as well as maintaining a higher parallel that allows the opportunity to drop the nose into a tight Lead turn for a gun track. But with the Cat3 Flight mode, he couldnt do that... I think this truly evened the playing field because it was all dependent on energy management.... a 9gTurn with tanks/stores in a viper would have severely busted the Jet....LOL Congrats! |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|