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An A-10 may have been involved in a friendly fire incident that killed nine Marines.



www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/28/btsc ... index.html

Another was hit. Friendly fire from a possible A-10 fighter is under investigation as well. At least nine Marines died; several others were wounded; some are still reported missing.

Fender

Don't tell me what you think, what does the T.O. say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2900349.stm

On Friday Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull died when a US A-10 tankbuster aircraft fired on two armoured vehicles.



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>General Myers told BBC One's Breakfast with Frost there was "no excuse" because preventative technical procedures were in place. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

So was the Warthog pilot at fault in this case? Anyone care to add their thoughts ?

Edited by - PteJohnTowle on Mar 30 2003 12:53 PM

Edited by - PteJohnTowle on Mar 30 2003 12:54 PM

well I'll add a thought. This isnt suposed to be happening on our all seeing all knowing electronic battlefield. I was just reading an article that said the AF had almost completely wasted it's chances for working closely with the Army in CAS recently, hope this isnt a by-product of that. But accidents happen and we dont know who called in the Hog to that target, and we all know the one that feels the worst about it is the pilot himself(other than the famalies of course)<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

THE A-10 ISNT THE ONLY THING CAUSING FRIENDLY FIRE.

AND I'LL TELL YOU THIS WHEN THE ROCKS COME OUT FINALLY AND STAND IT'LL BE THE WARTHOG WIPING THE GROUND WITH THEM!!!!!!!!!!
THE A-10 GETS THE BAD RAP,BECAUSE ITS FINAL!!!!!!!!!!! NOT MANY WALK AWAY,BUT REMEMBER IF ITS THAT LETHAL IN A FRIENDLY FIRE ACCIDENT,YOU BETTER DAMN WELL BELIEVE ITS ALOT MORE TO THOSE SORRY BASTARDS FROM BAGHDAD!!!


AND UNTIL THE REPORT COMES OUT,ITS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION

PRESS TO TEST

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

OK St Goose, I hear you loud and clear after all that SHOUTING !

SGT Goose Has MS and thus is required to have Large Capslocked text so that he can read. Sgt Goose is one of the most supportive guys ive known and he has strong passion for the A10. He has worked her in Combat and has all the right in the world to defend her how he see's fit.

Fratrcide is a fact in war. It sucks that it happens. But when troops are under enemy fire. Theirs no greater help in the world than a CAS pilot willing to take risks to save your ass.

Trust me its tough to come off a target knowing you dropped ordnance danger close to friendlies, or having Personell calling for support on their position. Ive done it, And I know more than a dozen guys and gals ive flown with have it happen to them. For many years this will role around in the back of your head. But you still need to put it behind you, Stay focused, Re-arm and stay in the fight.

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

THANKS MUDD,

MUDD KNOWS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE MISSION,FAC AND ATTACK.
I FEEL SORRY FOR THE UK SOLIDERS AND MARINES WHO HAVE DIED,JUST THE SAME AS FOR AUSSIES OR OUR OWN

I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT A UNION JACK LOOKS LIKE AT 15000FT THAT 12X18"
THEY GET CLEARANCE TO AN AREA BEFORE THEY ROLL IN ,BUT IT GOES BACK TO THE "IF YOU WERENT THERE,WAIT UNTIL THE REPORTS COME OUT".

AND ON THE OTHER THREAD,WHAT VIDEO TAPES DISSAPEARED? A A-10 ONLY HAS GUN FILM UNLESS ITS A VTR BIRD THEN A VIDEO TAPE IN THE ASS END.I SURE DONT REMEMBER ANY COMMING UP MISSING

THIS WAR IS A LONG WAY FROM OVER,IT MIGHT BE SOMEONE ELSE IN THE SAME POSITION FROM THE UK SIDE MIGHT HIT US TROOPS,YOU THINK WERE GOING TO SCREAM AND YELL FOR CHARGES,NO! CALL THEM A "HOTSHOT LIMIE" NO!

BUT TAKING THE A-10 OUT OF THE FRAY WOULD COST MORE LIFES THEN YOU COULD COUNT.
THE IRAQI'S FEARED THAT PLANE THEN AND THATS ALOT OF THE REASON THEIR HIDDING THEM NEXT TO CIVILAIN TRAGETS
THESE ARE SOME DUMBASS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

PRESS TO TEST

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

Friendly fire is terrible, no one doubts that...but I agree with Goose...until all the facts are out, I hold my judgement, hell, troups could have called in support on the wrong location, it has happened in the past, will happen in the future...its called the "Fog of War"...

Brought to you by your friendly neighborhood moderator...

If you can't go fast...go Ugly

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As a civilian, I never understood the difficulties inherent in identifying targets on the ground. Then a friend (RIP Charles, we all miss you!) who was ex-navy challenged me to ident makes of vehicles on the highway while actually flying his Cessna. IT'S MUCH HARDER THAN I THOUGHT! And that was while doodling along at 112mph with no risk of being shot at (well, not much risk.) I always admired military pilots, but if you can tell what ANYTHING is in a split second in combat conditions, my admiration is only that much greater.

"The First Rule in a Gunfight: Have a gun. If you violate this rule, no other rules apply" Jeff Cooper

The next person that tells Goose to take off his cap locks is getting the boot, dammit.



"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

IT DONT BOTHER ME SNIPE,YOU GUYS HAVE MY BACK,THEIR NEW AROUND HERE

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

The real tragedy of this case with the British vehicles is that the A10 pilots are not trained to recognise any of our vehicles.
Apart from the newly qualified A10 pilot who admitted the fact on this forum earlier today it has now been admitted on British TV tonight that it is known that they are given no training in UK armoured vehicle recognition.
I suggest that the Pentagon has a lot to answer for if this is the case but like Bush and Rumsfeld no doubt they are to damned arrogant to admit they might need to update the training manual.
To any US folks on here dont take this personally but understand the fury this information is causing in the UK right now given the friendly fire tragedy during Desert Storm with an A10 again taking 9 British Lives and we are your allies so no effort to update the training in the last 12 years!!!.
Its dangerous being your allies!!!

IF I REMEMBER RIGHT,WE HAD OVER 1000 TANKS AND VECHICLES TO OUR CERDIT ALONE IN OUR SQUADRON OF A-10'S

WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN IF UK FAC'S CALLED THESE HOG'S IN? AND AS FAR AS A HOG GOING HUNTING SOLO,I DONT THINK SO.

PRESS TO TEST

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

i guess since the wall came down that training missions with allied forces have become scarce - guy i marshall paintball for is an ex-challenger tank commander and used to train out in Germany with the hogs..

Allied training missions don't seem to scarce to me. What about NATO exercises such as Clean Hunter, as well as Cooperative Key and Red Flag, etc. The fact of the matter is that it was an accident, and there is too much going on to be pointing fingers back and forth.

--Raven

"For democracy, a man would give his only begotten son."

didn't think Red Flag was open to any1 but the US?

The Israeli's have flown Red Flag, not sure about anyone else though.

And by the way, the A-10 pilot that 'admitted' he didn't know what a Scimitar looked like is NOT in the combat zone.
It is pretty likely that the pilots who are deployed get briefed on all this stuff.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Hello,
I am a journalist with the Guardian newspaper in London who was embedded with the Household Cavalry Regiment during the war in Iraq. This was the regiment that was attacked by two A10 aircraft in the friendly fire incident that you are talking about.
I am keen to learn more about the A10 so that I can relate it to this incident and what happened to the man who died and those who survived.
Those who survived the incident and the others in the convoy told me that the two warthogs were flying at 500ft, is this a realistic height for them to be flying?
What would stop you seeing bright orange dayglo panels on the roofs of all the vehicles? What would make you think that this very British, very distinctive light armoured reconnaissance vehicles were the enemy? Could anybody put themselves in the pilots shoes for one minute and perhaps give an explanation.
Why would the pilots then turn round and come back in for a second swing? Then refuse to provide air cover when HQ realised what had gone on and the casualties were being evacuated?
I know that the A10s were out of their own area and that neither the embedded US FAC or the British FAC had called them in or given them authorisation to be in that area. So, would there be a reason for them to be there?
Is it the case that these men are likely to have been reservists?
These questions are not meant to anger anyone and are simply seeking answers to a terrible incident that I was a part of.
Audrey

SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS,AND IS A TERRIBLE THING.

BUT IT AINT RIGHT TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARENT PART OF THE INVESTIGATION BOARD TO DO ARMCHAIR QUARTER BACKING.

SO I'LL DECLINE AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE SHOULD TOO


NOT BEING MEAN OR SUCH BUT ITS THE ONLY THING TO DO IN THIS CASE


PRESS TO TEST

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

Roger that Goose ya gotta love back yard lawyers and aviation experts. Its so nice to see them all come out for the public relations call. To bad they couldnt have showed up when I needed help changing the nacelle section of my #1 throttle cable. And ya fratricide sucks but I'll be damned if I am gonna chime in to a reporter. If he wants to learn more about the Hawg let him read all 12000 forum posts first. And on a lighter note there Santa Goose, Elf Billy is sending an early Christmas package to ya. Should be there in a couple.
Hey Mr. Reporter from da UK, in your spare time ya may wannna interview some of those SAS and SBS guys that had their bacon saved by the HAWG in both rounds of the Gulf War. Ta Ta................

"By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey!"..........The Immortal Memory

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YGBSM !

The US was not the only ones involved in FF, there were British on British deaths, but you don't hear much about these only the US mistakes....

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/032503_ ... diers.html

I can't go into what did or didn't happen in Iraq because it's still under investigation and anyone who does is only speculating. Let the investagation finnish and then debate the finding because right now no one here has enough information to base an arugment on.

Ugly but well hung!
http://www.warthogpen.com

I understand that the matter is still under investigation. I am just trying to get a better understanding of what went on that day. Whether it is an exaggeration to say the two A10s were flying as low as 500 ft and other matters.

I also know that there were British on British incidents. And you do hear about that. Certainly here in the UK there have been many reports. Though I can't say I saw much reporting of the A10 incidents in the American press.

And for the record, I am a woman. Where I come from, Audrey is a woman's name though whilst in the states people often mishear me and think I am called OJ or more embarassingly Orgy.

But if no-one feels able to advise me, then fair enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I understand that the matter is still under investigation. I am just trying to get a better understanding of what went on that day. Whether it is an exaggeration to say the two A10s were flying as low as 500 ft and other matters.

I also know that there were British on British incidents. And you do hear about that. Certainly here in the UK there have been many reports. Though I can't say I saw much reporting of the A10 incidents in the American press.

And for the record, I am a woman. Where I come from, Audrey is a woman's name though whilst in the states people often mishear me and think I am called OJ or more embarassingly Orgy.

But if no-one feels able to advise me, then fair enough.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Audrey, there are a few things you need to understand here, first, there was an article in the NYT a month or so ago about retiring the A-10 which stirred-up a hornets nest in HQ. When you identified yourself as a reported that put all Active, Guard, and Reserve members of this forum on guard. We have been told, in no uncertain terms, we are not to talk to the press on matters such as this without going through our Public Affairs office first.

Second, and I’m speaking for myself here, I’ve been bashed on servile forums over this issue and frankly it’s getting a little old. It is the height of unfairness to try to judge this pilot’s actions on a forum like this without haveing all the information available. We have no idea what happen in the cockpit of that aircraft that day and to say no one called in that strike is again unfair … who said no one did? Has this pilot had his day in court? No, he has been branded a “cowboy”, “reckless”, and I think I’ve even seen the term “blood-thirsty” used in one story.

To make this sound like a cover-up (missing tape) is just plain ridiculous! It’s been my experience (23 years in the USAF) the US is more than willing to punish one of it’s own if they feel he/she did something wrong, sometime to the extreme!

So it’s not we don’t feel able to advise you it we feel the A-10 pilot deserves his day in court and not to be found guilty in the media, press, or the intranet without being able to tell his side of the story first.


Ugly but well hung!
http://www.warthogpen.com

Hey, <b>Mrs.</b> Reporter Lady? If you're that eager for a story, how bout you come to Israel and shine a new light on things? I mean, we're really getting a bad rap in the world media today, except for Fox News (CNN are Anti-Semites!) hey, if you do a good enough job he government might even ask you to stay on permenantly. (Not quite sure if this is such a good thing or not, though. For you, that is)

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

AUDREY,
I ALWAYS LIKED THAT NAME,BUT LIKE DICE SAID ABOVE,EVEN US PRIOR SERVICE AINT GOING TO SAY ANYTHING WITHOUT THE FACTS.
I KNOW I'M HIJACKING THE THREAD BUT,
ELF BILLY,YOU GET YOUR TIE TACKS YET?

PRESS TO TEST[

Edited by - sgtgoose1 on Jun 17 2003 4:20 PM

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\"Live Free Or Die\"