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http://www2.acc.af.mil/library/FA22/index.htm

Lots of good stuff here. Theres been talk of air foreign aircraft waxing our tails. Heres an excerpt from Gen. Jumpers remarks earlier this spring in a similar vein :

“From time to time, we get our hands on these airplanes (the Russian Sukhoi-series) and we put our very best pilots in them up against our very best pilots from the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force flying our own F-15s, F-14s, F-18s, and F-16s,” says General Jumper. “The fact is that our guys flying their airplanes beat our guys flying our airplanes every single time.”



Edited by - rickusn on Aug 08 2004 12:30 PM

LOL I spent 4 1/2 years doing just that.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

So I take it hes right and that this been happening for quite some time? Now that cant possibly be good can it?

He's talking about our legacy planes, not the F-22.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

I know. My point was that this apparently has been known and happenning for quite some time.

I'm Not sure I am Following you.

I spent most of the 90's in the Raptor improvement program, also working with Various Foriegn Aircraft. In both Test, Exchange, Engineer Evaluations etc.

Rick we have always had foriegn hardware in our inventory. With our Buying power. It isnt hard to get a nation to giveup eastern block Hardware.

A group of us Also helped the East German and Polish military integrate into Nato. There are many ways to get the data and experiance we need to Develop technologies and training to make the Forign Hardware and our advesaries combat ineffective in a fight<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Sorry to be so late in replying. But if that is so that we can make them "ineffective" (and I quite agree) then why the big deal made over "foreign" aircraft beating ours lately? Just a question that I probably know the answer to but I value your experience and insight. Thx. Rick

Trust me we dont have anything to worry about in relation to equipment. Ive spent a great deal of Time Flying the 27 and 29. The 15 is still very capable in its engagement feature sets, the BVR capability is Good.

Training was the key deficiencies. The Indians training is more agressive and no holds barred. Which is the opposite as we tend to restrict manuever envelope and push safety as out training emphesis.

Our training enviroment is not based on a dire need of survival but in a dire need to maintain an expeditionary capability.

In short We dont push our aircraft to the extremes and shorten fatigue life. If this was the case the engagement would be much more against the Indians Favor.

If you also recall that the ratio odds were quite high in the Indians favor. The U.S. Jets were not Max performing.

The purpose of the eval was in testing technology vs expected overwelming odds.

The exercise was nothing more than a Syntax on Platform vs human proficiency.

The goal in any engagement profile is to ensure a high percentile of easily achieved kills, as you lose members of your package the odds start to climb.

The engagement that took place required a great deal of pressure to penetrate the Eagle Screen. The indians were taking losses to achieve the one kill. Once the 15's started losing package integrity the rate of loss was exponential.

Indians took a great deal of Bruising and risk to achieve their kills. If this exaercise would of been based on a 30 day sortie surge. their is no way in reallity the Indians would of survived and the tide would have greatly turned to he U.S.'s favor.



"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

The push for the Raptor is obviously based on the idea that we can win without any significant casualties in the opening days of a high intensity conflict.

I agree that even with Eagles that in a 30 day scenario the IAF ceases to exist. The US has too many ways to kill the enemy's airforce. TLAMs, CALCMs and SLAMERs would probably kill more indian fighters than any other US weapons system.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

Snipe I dont think you are grasping what I had said. I shall spell it out more clearly.

The Flanker Series is a low flight hour airframe. In comparison our aircraft have 4.2 times the lifespan fatigue life. The Flankershas a very poor mission Quick Turn Rate. Secondly their maintainability shortfall is very high. Logistics are unbearable by many nations.

For every Flanker Turned their is 15 Eagles taking flight. Their manufacturer base cannot sustain the parts production required to operate the aircraft on a broader scale

The point im makeing here is that you have to Judge a Squadrons capability of being Combat available during a campaign. many things fall into this. Logistics(parts supply), maintainance hours(airframe availablility)Training.

I hate to say this, but even in our Inventory the flankers were piss pour and we placed our best technicians and Maintainers to the challenge. (3 airframes we cut up becasue they were broken beyond repair and turned into Research peices.

The Engines alone are a huge White flag. To be clear. Their Engines are Garbage.

The sortie capability alone is so bad that the Ukrainians, Georgians, Russians only fly one squadron and the rest never fly. The aircraft sit in Shelters awaiting for War. Small airforces like the indians routinely Fly 6 aircraft only and the rest go through maintanance.

This means at any given time a squadron of 18 aircraft will only have 6-8 available as Compared to a USAF Eagle squadron that is producing 15 out of the 18 available historically.

They can only afford to keep one squadron of training aircraft airworthy. IF they had the quality of western equipment in their hands their airforces would be better trained and capabable of more flight hours to gain that valuable fighting edge.

If you cannot Field a force for training events, If you Cannot standup the full squadron for a positive mission rate. Your airforce is a lost cause. this is the truth of why the Indians and Pakis never sustained operations against each other longer than 2 weeks. It was too costly and the combat capabilities were unbearable.

The best the two will field is a light skirmish from time to time.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Thx MrMudd. Its what I thought about the Indian exercises as much the same happens in naval exercises.

But what about General Jumpers remarks? What was the purpose is what Im getting at?

If its just to make sure the F/A 22 stays on track is a little scary given the fact that while the F-15 is a fine aircraft its aging rapidly. That alone should be enough to keep it on track at this point I would think. Or are there deeper underlying issues?

"That alone should be enough to keep it on track at this point I would think."

You of all people Rick should NEVER underestimate the stupidity of the United States Congress.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

To be a World Expeditionary power it is not Cost effective to have an aircraft that is sliding into the Average category.

F15 was 30 years ahead of its time. Today it is no longer that. While its avionics have improved. The Eastern Technology is rising to that Level that the F15 had maintained for so long.

The F22 is the next phase of maintaineing that Air Supremecy Edge. The F22 Brings a combat capability that will be unmatched in every way for many years to come..Hopefully.

The Rate of processor growth is going to be decideing factor before long.

The Digital Battlefield is the Future of Modern Air warfare. How well you can integrate and prosecute a Combat activity is what will seperate the smoking holes in the ground From hardware in the skies.

Manueverability is not exactly A pressing issue to have today. It is a Failsafe.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Thanks for your insights MrMudd. And I agree now is the time for the F-22 for the USAF but unfortunately the USN will have to wait for the next generation if ever.

Sniper yes my comment was meant to be sarcastic towards the Congress. I was just trying not to be too blatant. LOL