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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 15:22 
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POGO beat me to it long ago in a blog they had on this topic, but I stil wonder why the V-22 wasn't selected for the new Marine One helicopter.

http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2005/0 ... the_v.html

First and foremost, the Osprey (assuming it will all work as the pundits keep claiming it will) would be ideal for VIP flights more so than any other mission it's going to perform: transistioning into forward flight equals much quicker times between points that could translate into crucial savings say when getting the President from the White House to AF1 in a time of crisis?

The V-22 can be refueled via aerial refueling, but I guess that's not a big priority for the HMX fleet like it is for AF1.

I don't have all of the physical specifications in front of me comparing the US101/VH-71 fuselage with the V-22 but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Osprey would have provided more than ample space when compared with the existing common HMX aircraft. I don't buy the rotor diameter issue as being the only reason why the V-22 wasn't selected. The US101 is going to be replacing current HMX CH-46 and CH-53 aircraft and the V-22 isn't any larger than those so either HMX needs at least two types of aircraft for it's mission (US101 cannot get into all the same small places that the VH-60 can nor can it carry the loads that the VH-53E's can) or the V-22's size would have been just fine.

The price comes out to be about the same, and the Osprey might even be a little cheaper depending upon the flavor of the week doing the cost estimation:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The program, worth nearly $6 billion, covers 23 VH-71 operational aircraft and three test aircraft at an expected cost of approximately $82 million per aircraft (Increment One) and approximately $110 million per aircraft in the final configuration. The VH-71A carries components provided by more than 200 suppliers in 41 states. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... grades.htm

Being that team US-101 is a conglomerate of US/European defense contractors derived from a European design, I don't think the Osprey was not chosen because it was actually made in the USA.

The US Marines who operate the fleet of Presidential helicopters will be operating 400 V-22 Osprey and in doing such will provide for many experienced crew chiefs, mechanics, and pilots who could otherwise have just gone right over to HMX-1 and not missed a beat - but now they have to learn how to maintain and operate an entirely new platform.

So why is it that the Osprey was not even considered for HMX-1?

Many will argue that the USMC would be better off operating US101's over the V-22's as it is a fine platform based off of proven rotary winged flight, and with it being built in the numbers that the Osprey is would minus all of the Marine One specific goodies surely bring the costs down to a much more reasonable price saving the Corps millions that could be used to pay for it's new CH-53K program.

But could it just be that the US senior politicans while evidently feeling that the Osprey would be "safe" and "good" enough for the US Marines to fly into combat just wasn't safe enough for they to fly around in?

If that isn't the case, than there really is no reason as to why the V-22 shouldn't be being used for the next Presidential Helicotper.



Edited by - krieger on Apr 16 2006 14:57


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 16:53 
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Interesting six year old article from Aviationtoday.com that certainly expected the Osprey to be a competitor for Marine One. The article seems to think that costs will be the Osprey's biggest hurdle but as that appeared not to be a factor, I really would like to know why the Osprey wasn't selected?

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/sho ... litary.htm

Bell Boeing V-22

A tiltrotor replacement for the VH-3D is perhaps the most intriguing possibility. In the amphibious assault role, the MV-22, the Marine Corps variant, has overwhelming advantages over conventional helicopters. Many, if not all, of these advantages are applicable to the White House mission.

But the disadvantages also loom large. The most notable issue for the V-22 is the technology itself, which represents a significant shift away from the tried and true for a squadron and a bureaucracy that are inherently conservative. Cost also may be a factor, as will hangar and landing facilities and air transportability.

The V-22’s speed and range, and the resulting reduction in vulnerability are convincing benefits. Instead of multiple sorties on a variety of aircraft, routine trips to places like Boston, New York or Chicago could be accomplished with a single sortie originating at the White House. That kind of operational flexibility offers significant schedule, security and cost advantages over the current way of doing business.

Another consideration is commonality, particularly in training. In the Marine Corps only HMX-1 flies the H-3, so there is no population of experienced H-3 pilots in the operating forces to draw on. Not only will the fleet be filled with hundreds of MV-22s; HMX-1 will replace its own CH-46Es with new MV-22s.

As an example of the benefits commonality brings, consider that fleet pilots coming to HMX-1 with 1,500 flight hours typically require 47 weeks to go from check-in to "mission ready." For Presidential Command Pilots, that process can take three to four years. A pilot from the fleet requires at least 40 flight hours and 17 syllabus flights to be fully qualified in the VH-3D. Having pilots already experienced in the aircraft they will fly at HMX-1 not only benefits the squadron, but provides valuable flight time for when those aviators return to an operational fleet squadron.

Add to that the logistics and cost advantages associated with having a common platform in the fleet and in the presidential mission, and commonality joins operational performance as a long pole in the Bell Boeing tent.

But the V-22 always had its critics, and the old arguments against tiltrotors will be dusted off and trotted out once more.

Fortunately for Bell Boeing, those arguments have been found wanting in the past. Countless official studies have validated the V-22 as the best solution for replacing in-service medium-lift helicopters. What will be different this time is that the V-22’s operational performance will be there for everyone to see. A trouble-free transition to the fleet and sustained operational effectiveness won’t ensure success for Bell Boeing in the executive helo competition, but without them, the V-22 won’t stand a chance.

The other challenge facing the V-22 has more to do with the requirements and acquisition process than with the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various competitors. A requirements document will be drafted to support replacing the VH-3Ds. The tiltrotor has some significant advantages over conventional helicopters, and if the requirements document places a premium on the tiltrotor’s key attributes—notably speed and range—it will boost the V-22.

But drafting the document that way will necessarily reduce the field of potential competitors, something the Navy (which ultimately buys the aircraft) has at times been reluctant to do. If the requirements are "dumbed down" in the interest of leveling the playing field, the tiltrotor may be put at a disadvantage, particularly in terms of cost.

That scenario may seem unlikely, but it’s hardly unprecedented. In the Navy and Marine Corps vertical takeoff unmanned aerial vehicle (VTUAV) competition earlier this year, the performance requirements were relaxed to increase competition. Much to the chagrin of the Marine Corps, the UAV that came closest to meeting the mission requirements, Bell’s Eagle Eye tiltrotor, lost out to a less expensive, less capable air vehicle.

Despite the obvious advantages of the tiltrotor, the Bell Boeing Tiltrotor Team’s success or failure at influencing the requirements process (and the MV-22 accident last April) ultimately may decide the V-22’s fate as an executive transport.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 17:18 
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Personaly I think the technology is too new to be putting POTUS on for now ( lets use congressmen instead lol ). Let the Marines use it for trash hauling for a few years before using it for assault, THEN we can think of the Osprey for VIP stuff. The V-109, or whatever the civie offshoot of Osprey is called, should be up and running by then and adding data to the discussion. I'm not sure if Osprey is transportable via C-5 ( when folded ) and that may be one of the reqs for Presidential use.

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 17:31 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The article seems to think that costs will be the Osprey's biggest hurdle...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>And its flight record isn't so great, so far, either.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 20:32 
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Here's an interesting blurb from a site some of you may be familiar with. The author is a former Marine officer but since he's not with the V-22 program he is often the target of character defamation so as to discredit his arguments. One comment suggests that the Osprey is not transferable by C-5 but then again, with aerial refueling, 300+ cruise at 20k (C-130 territory), and 23 of them why would you ever need to really transport one when yoiu could just fly it to where you needed to go? Overseas Marine One flights are not all that entirely regular.

If the politicians receiving handouts from our big defense contractors don't feel safe enough to use the Osprey than why do they deem it good enough for the Marines to risk their lives on in combat?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The V-22 rated too dangerous for Washington DC VIPs

The dangers of the V-22 are no secret in Washington DC. The fleet of Presidential helicopters is aging, and replacements are needed by 2012. According to a June 16, 2003 article in the Washington Post: "The Marine Corps has asked Boeing Co. to enter the competition with its V-22 Osprey, which suffered two high-profile crashes in 2000, killing 23 Marines. But a senior Navy official said the aircraft, which could become operational as soon as 2006, may not be mature enough."

Mature enough? What happened is the Marine helicopter development and test squadron at Quantico, HMX-1, also provides White House helicopter support. HMX-1 pilots, who are not part of the Bell-Boeing V-22 test team, flew the V-22 several times and gave it low marks, so it was dropped as a candidate to shuttle White House VIPs. As a result, the angry Bell-Boeing test team had the Marines form "VMX-22" at MCAS New River and staffed it with "team" members to rubberstamp their results.

With its greater speed, the V-22 should be ideal for quickly moving hot shots around the East Coast without the need to take a helicopter hop to Andrews AFB to board an airplane. Boeing touts the tiltrotor as the ideal executive transport aircraft, although no airline has expressed an interest. Washington insiders also know the V-22 is unsafe, yet are unwilling to battle the political forces which profit off this racket and terminate the program. White House staffers determined the V-22 is safe enough for Marines to fly into tough combat zones, but not safe enough for Washington VIPs to land at clean helo pads.

The US Air Force's Air Combat Command is looking for the ideal Combat Search and Rescue aircraft to replace its aging fleet of HH-60 Pave Hawks. Speed and range are critical for these 132 medium-lift aircraft the Air Force plans to buy. However, the Air Force refuses to consider the V-22 for this role. It seems Air Force Generals have determined the V-22 is flawed. The Air Force remains a minor player in the V-22 program since the Special Operations Command liked the idea of 50 CV-22s to replace their aging MH-53J Pave Lows. However, Special Ops operators have given the CV-22 low marks. The primary complaint is that the cabin of CV-22 is much smaller than the MH-53J, so much of their equipment will not fit inside. However, the Special Operations Command does not want to upset political supporters by backing out of the CV-22 in favor of new MH-53Ks, preferring to wait until it fails again. The Navy backed out of plans for 48 HV-22s two years ago in favor of the MH-60S, although the V-22 program ignores this reality. The MH-60S costs one-quarter of a V-22, weighs one-third as much, yet can lift almost the same amount of cargo.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

http://www.g2mil.com/V-22struggles.htm


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2006, 22:55 
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Airlines havent exactly lined up in droves to buy the C-130 either( I think the civil version was called the L-100 ), it doesnt fit thier needs. The Bell 609 ( the civie tiltrotor for VIP execs ) had 70 or so orders back in 2003 and is sort of piggybacking it's certification on Osprey, it's deemed likely to be successful in intra-city transport between airports and downtown and if the price is right the offshore oil industry contracts will likely put a lot of money in Bell-Agusta's pockets.
Lots of things are deemed "safe enough" for volunteer military but not for civie use, nothing new there, or in this thread.

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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2006, 11:24 
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While one could continue to play the argument that the Osprey may or may not be safe enough for operational use, if Marines that were now working with the Osprey felt that they thought it was going to kill them they wouldn't fly it. So most likely, for whatever reason it had more to do with than just a safety issue and I am curious as to other than it can't fit in a C-5 why the V-22 wasn't selected.

Just having the Marines who operate HMX readily familiar with and qualified on the aircraft would make enough sense to justify the decision, and since it wasn't financial reasons what plausible explanations can the USN really provide for? It certainly offers more than their current fleet so it's not like it couldn't even fill those shoes.


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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2006, 16:30 
The biggest most damning question about a lack of interest in Osprey is to me, the US Army.

Osprey is not in violation of the Key West Accords so far as i know, yet...nary an order for nary an airframe.

Speaks volumes to me.



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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2006, 06:52 
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I didn't think that the V-22 even competed in the Marine 1 compitition. As I understand it the compitition was won by Lockeed Owego.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2006, 06:54 
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Also, the V-22 is being taken by the Air Force, not the Army. There is even an AMU standing up at Nellis. I think they will a Marine Det though.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2006, 09:08 
The USAF is 'planning' to buy all of 50 Ospreys.

Compared to the US Armys fleet of 20,000 plus helos, that is hardly significant.

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