WT Forums

Take a look at the ordanance dropped on the Taliban and tell me the 14 is dead. The F-14 has recently undergone a life extension program to prolong its service life, because the SuperHornet cannot step up to the plate, in fact 14's delivered in the early 1980's with 6500+ flight hours on them are holding up better than 18's delivered in the early 90's with roughly half the flight hours. The fact is the F-14 concept was so well thought out that it is still on the cutting edge some 30 years later, with growth potential still.........

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

The point is, Boomer, is that both the Hornet and Super Hornet were bad ideas from the start, politically motivated, and forced upon the Navy against their will from the beginning. The debate is not so much about the the F-14 and its cancellation, but about dragging the pukes who made those decisions out into the light, thoroughly embarassing and debunking them, so that similarly criminal policy making is not repeated in the future for fear of the backlash. Our military needs to design and select the weapons OUR SOLDIERS NEED to suit THEIR BATTLFIELD DOCTRINES, NOT some moron politco's and his business-cronies' pocketbooks, margins, and quarterly-earnings' reports. The F-18 and V-22 are perfect examples of this politicking, wasteful in both money AND LIVES!

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

I am sorry Boomer...........

This is an issue close to my heart.
Its also Super Bowl week and I am all jazzed up for my Oakland Raiders. You are entititled to your opinion, its just not the same as mine.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

When I first learned that the HORNET was going to replace the TOM awhile a ago I was a little stunned. I thought that it was solely going to be a beefed up F/A-18C.

The reason the TOM is so "close to your heart" proves that is once was the plane of magnificent capabilities with the potential for a long, bright, future; even though it was a maintainance nightmare.
If the TOM-21 was going to do all the stuff that was advertised and was passed by Navy brass, then I would've totaly embraced it.

The majority of the pilots who trasitioned from the D model love this new design. The one I was privileged to talk to swore by it, I asked about some specs on RADAR and range and he declared OPSEC(Oh, well)

Boomer, I consider you my brother-in-naval-arms. Who knows, maybe we can get together in 5-10 years and ask to participate in the dispatching of the remaining TOMS with that massive guiotine like so many old SAC bombers!(just kidding TT<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>)
<font size=1>Seriously Boomer, 5-10 years, mark it on your calendar(s)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle></font id=size1>

Though we may be in different opinion, we ought to all be in support of our current and future NFO's who will have to put their lives on the line(perhaps in 6-8 weeks).

Oh God, I made a pact with myself that I would not post another thread on this debate...So much for that.

Back to bed for me...<img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>







Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 22 2003 12:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Who knows, maybe we can get together in 5-10 years and ask to participate in the dispatching of the remaining TOMS with that massive guiotine like so many old SAC bombers!(just kidding TT)
Seriously Boomer, 5-10 years, mark it on your calendar(s)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

And TT is found face-down with a wooden spoon firmly between his shoulder blades. lol<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

What basis do you say the 'majority of F-14 pilots'?

The majority of F-14D pilots are still driving F-14D's, as there are very few of them and they will be the last to be retired.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I am sorry Boomer...........

This is an issue close to my heart.
Its also Super Bowl week and I am all jazzed up for my Oakland Raiders. You are entititled to your opinion, its just not the same as mine.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

done and done, sorry TT I'm just not a "spilled milk" kind of guy, it's nothing personal, I just dont see anything coming out of it. Weapons procurement has always been a slimy dirty buissness, and congresses year by year funding just makes any attempt to do it right almost impossible. Lets just agree to disagree, the whole point of this country is that we have the RIGHT to dissagree with anything. And if anyone EVER thinks twice about how I feel for the people who put thier cracks in a jam for this country (especially the ones we never are allowed to hear about)on an hourly basis, then they just havent been paying attention.

tritonal-> PLEASE dont bring up that dam_ed Guillotine El Gigante! I was nearly sickened when I saw that thing falling on those mighty BUFFs. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

BTW as a dedicated Chiefs fan, I cant possibly "boost" the evil Raiders<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>, but I do think they are the best team in the playoffs. And as a raiders fan TT, I would expect you to feel the same if the situations were reversed and the Chiefs were in, BEST rivalry in the NFL (OK a 3 way tie with Denver)

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

BTW if something unfortunate were to happen to Keyshawn Johnson I guess I wouldent have much of a prob with that. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Yes Boomer, they were the mighty BUFFS, but they could not stand the wrath of "Madamme Guillotine"!! (Extra brownie points for Boomer who had the correct spelling)
VIVA LA REVOLUTION, VIVA LE SUPERHORNET!

Just remember Boomer, there is space left in the aircraft to be modified so we don't know what else we can expect

<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fighter-comp.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://www.komarek.com/fa18f-5.jpg" border=0>

Sniper, I only meant the D's who transitioned to the Super Hornet, not the ones in current TOM's. Who knows what they have to say?

Thats a lame chart, it puts the F/A-18E/F over the Rafale, EF-2000 and Su-35.

the SH IS stealthier than each of those other planes(but not the JSF), and has better systems/weapons as well. In a dogfight it would be different perhaps, but why slash and hack when you can snipe from 20 miles away! YES YES I've actually done it, I've called the SH a flying sniper!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Flying Sniper.........Now that honor truly should go to the F-14. Cause you don't know its there untill you RAWS gear starts screeming and you tell your crew ........Eject Eject Eject! In Arabic, North Korean, French, or German.

Standoff A2A tactics Boomer? If I didn't know better I would say that you are arguing pro F-14 because it is the undisputed king of the BVR arena........Very interesting my friend, I think you are starting to see the light.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Oh man, Flying sniper?

Fighting words bro, lol.

The F-18F is the 5.56mm of the aviation world- in other words, just good enough....

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The F-18F is the 5.56mm of the aviation world- in other words, just good enough....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

WHOA! sounds like your coming over to my .308 camp LOL

TT you know darn well the F-14 doesnt sneak up on anybody, one of the highest RCS's in the TAC world, and a RADAR that will burn your pupils out from 100 miles away LOL. SH's radar isnt strong enough to attract anybodys attention <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

When did i state i was anti-.30?

I just think that the 5.56mm is good enough for the masses that can't shoot worth a damn anyway.

I like .30's a LOT, but i prefer the -06 and magnums, the .308 is pretty marginal as a sniper rifle cartridge.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

we had talked about the 5.56 having more tumble damage after penetration than the 7.62

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

How is the F/A-18F gonna snipe at EF-2000s and Rafales is both can carry the AIM-120 or MICA (yes the Rafale can carry the AIM-120)?

You can sneak up on anything when you can reach out and touch it from 120+ nautical miles away.........The Tomcat is the silent assasin, it can search and track passively with its radar and IRST............and with the TCS is always garaunteed first shot.

Like I said, you don't know the Tomcat is out there untill the AIM-54 is on its Mach+ terminal dive, after that your in Muhhameds hands, or praying for that devine wind.........

I am no sniper expert, I defer that to Bill............But I like the .270

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Boomer lad, I cannot believe you are going to push the F-18E/F as better in the BVR arena..........Super Hornet idealism is strong in MO I suppose, not unlike Nazi idealism was strong in Berlin circa 1937. Read about the passive capabilities of both the AWG-9 and APG-71. The F-18E/F is stealthier than the F-14 by a long shot, yes.........But that doesn't really matter when the F-14 is 100 nm away and has a bead drawn on you, when your radar has a range of 75 miles or so. Now if the fight merges closer the Hornet will have an advantage due to its much smaller RCS, but the F-14D employs stealth counter measures with both the IRST gear, and the TCS gear, plus the APG-71 is strong enough to defealt stealth to a degree.

The Super Hornet will have to run the gauntlet though 2 weapon sytems envelope's before it is on equalibrium with the F-14, I wouldn't care for those odds myself If I were Super Hornet driver.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 12 2003 4:51 PM

.270 is a FINE cartridge Tomcat.

Boomer, yeah, i remember that- and the 5.56mm does acutally create a larger TWC due to it's higher velocity(though that fades faster in comparison to a .30 as range increases).

I still prefer the .30's though- you won't see me lobbying for a 5.56mm sniper rifle anytime soon, lol.

One advantadge the Tom hold's is that it can recieve updates via JTIDS from a E-2/3 and engage in flyout mode with it's own APG-71 snoozed.

In that mode the Phoenix(Or F-14) does not advertise itself until it is 20,000 yards from the target.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> not unlike Nazi idealism <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
yeah no flaming there 'eh TT? you must be proud..

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>yeah no flaming there 'eh TT? you must be proud.. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Ahhhh...........Boomer relax, flaming is much worse. I was making a point. You just need to learn to see more sunshine in this sometimes dark world...........<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Well it was a little over the top there TT.

I normally save the Nazi comparisons for people i really don't like.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.

I guess a few people around here need to be treated with "Kiddie Gloves"

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!