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F-22
F-35
F-15C
F-16 block 60
Gripen
F-14D
Rafale
F-18C
Eurofighter (Would be way up the ladder if it was actually equipped with all the "planned" goodies for it)
F-18E/F (Until they get better engines. Then they move way up the ladder)

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I'd put the F-14D third on the list, but besides that i agree with your rankings CapC.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

What about the IAI/IAF Kfir and the IAI/IAF Lavi?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>F-18E/F (Until they get better engines. Then they move way up the ladder) <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Agree 100%, they are on the anemic side.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>F-22
F-35
F-15C
F-16 block 60
Gripen
F-14D
Rafale
F-18C
Eurofighter (Would be way up the ladder if it was actually equipped with all the "planned" goodies for it)
F-18E/F (Until they get better engines. Then they move way up the ladder <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What are you basing this list on? Air Superiority? Multi-function? Ground Attack? Prior record? Why didn't you also list foreign models of US planes, such as the F-15K and he F-15I? What about the Kfir, or the Lavi? The Kfir has a distinguished service record, and the Lavi would definetely be better than the Eurofighter, the Rafale, or the F/A-18C

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

the Kfir is just a continuously upgraded Mirage III and doesnt rank with any of those planes, and we'll find out about the Lavi when the Chinese J-10 goes into production.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on Jun 22 2003 8:54 PM

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

The Kfir WAS based on the Mirage, but only the first model, the Kfir-C1 actually shows it. The C1 only had canards in added onto the Mirage airframe. The engines were GE J79 afterburning turbojets, and the C1 had a complete avionics suite manufactured by Israeli companies. C1's have been sold to the USN and the USMC to be used as "aggressor" aircraft, and were given the designation F-21

The C2, an upgraded C1 could stand up to all threats until the middle '90s. The C2 is distinguished from the C1 version in several ways. Aside from short-field performance, there are also dogtoothed outer wing panels, small undernose stakes, and swepat delta canard foreplanes.

The C7 is the single seat version based on the C2. the C7 has an adapted version of the J79 GEJ1E with 1000 lb more afterburner thrust. Max takeoff weight was increased by 3395 lb, and combat radius and thrust-to-wieght ratio was majorly increased . Its aded featured include two more hardpoints and HOTAS, along with advanced features making it capable to carry and use "SMART" weapons. An Elta EL/M-2021B pulse-Doppler RADAR, a revised cockpit with many advanced electronic features and in-flight refeuling capability make it a serious adversary to any enemy pilot in the area.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

The Lavi started development in the early '80s. The Lavi program was cancelled under political pressure by the US, which feared for it's F-16 and F/A-18 sales. Not much is known about the Lavi, as it's plans are constantly being modefied to match the current threat. Should the situation call for it, the first modernized Lavi can roll off assembly lines in less than half a year, and squadrons can be integrated into the IAF in as little as three months after recieving them.

<img src="http://www.iaf.org.il/english/images/about/gallery/visuals/large/lavi/pic04.jpg" border=0>

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

and if my mother had 8 wheels she'd be a BTR, but whats your point? Do you REALLY think the Kfir could slice and dice with any of the listed planes?
and this is a Chinese J-10
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10-3view.jpg" border=0>
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10.htm

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

The Kfir could definetely slice and dice with the Rafale and the Eurefighter, and in the hand of a good pilot, the Kfir C7 would be able to take on F-15C, F-16, F/A-18C, F/A-18E/F and emerge victorious. Don't know about the F-22 or F-35 as they aren't avalable yet for comparison. Probably not against the F-14D. Dunno enough about the Gripen to tell you

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The Kfir could definetely slice and dice with the Rafale and the Eurefighter, and in the hand of a good pilot, the Kfir C7 would be able to take on F-15C.....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not with the new radar F-15s are getting, to include the C models...lets just say I wouldn't want to be the target....

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If you can't go fast...go Ugly

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Which brings me to another question about CapC's list: How would you rate the same planes in actual close-in ACM, not BVR fighting?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

I dunno...

It is really easy to rate tactical fighter aircraft in terms of turn and burn ability. But in all reality its about tactics and support, and the given situation. If we had two equal pilots, 15,000ft above the runway in a WWI type 1v1 scenario I would want a F-18C. Put that same situation at 30,000 ft and increase the variables I would want an F-15C. Put that same fight 300 miles away and I would want the F-14D. So really no one argument fits all, it depends on the situation at hand and what your facing.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Say you're at 23,972 feet, temp is -75f, (I'm guessing about the figures here). Guns only. What plane would you want to fly, and what plane do you think would be the hardest to fight against in your plane?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

I would sit on the ground in a lawn chair drinking a frosty cold Becks, eating some nachos and fire a sam at it.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Very funny. Now seriously, what plane would yu want in that situation, and what plane do you think would be the hardest to fight in your own choice?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

It all depends on the pilot...and from my limited knowledge, in a acm gunfight...with equal pilot(s)...The bird of my choice would be an F-18C. But thats just me. Probably its toughest advesary, would be an F-16...The two jets were designed around this criteria, not necessarly a gunfight, but ACM agility.

BTW I read your post regarding the Lavi BR....I doubt it would have threatend the F-16 on the export market. Foreign airforces want the best, which means buy american aerospace engineering....Your country has followed that train of thought.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Edited by - chadrewsky on Jun 24 2003 12:51 PM

"It all depends on the pilot...and from my limited knowledge, in a acm gunfight...with equal pilot(s)...The bird of my choice would be an F-18C."

Give me an SU-30MkI.

If it's purely a gunfight, i'd want an F-8 Crusader.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I would sit on the ground in a lawn chair drinking a frosty cold Becks, eating some nachos and fire a sam at it.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

LOL

at least one german part.
the Becks..
what are we doing trying to build a fighter plane? we should just stay with beer-brewing..
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Ahhhh... the sweet little seconds before I remember why I am sleeping on the lawn."
-Homer, The Simpsons

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\"My name's Pitt, and you ain't talkin' your ass outta this shit.\"