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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 05:10 
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Pratt May Corner Market On F-35 Engines

Pentagon Plans To End Competing Development Program For Powering Fighter Jet, Sources Report


January 5, 2006
By PAUL MARKS, Courant Staff Writer

The Pentagon, seeking to trim expenses in its costliest warplane program, plans to make Pratt & Whitney the sole supplier of engines for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jet by ending a competing engine development program, according to defense analysts and recent published reports.

The 2007 defense budget, which President Bush is to present to Congress next month, will call for termination of a contract that has the British firm Rolls-Royce and General Electric Co. building a second engine for the F-35, the sources and reports say.


Pratt is developing the F135 engine for the Joint Strike Fighter under a $4.8 billion contract it won in 2001. The $2.47 billion contract for a competing engine was awarded last August with the idea of having competition keep prices lower for U.S. and foreign buyers. The Joint Strike Fighter is to enter service in 2012.

Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, in a Dec. 20 memo quoted by Bloomberg News, said that ending the competing engine contract would save an estimated $1.7 billion over five years, ending in 2011.

The Reuters news service reported Tuesday that British Prime Minister Tony Blair has written to Bush, urging him to save the Rolls-Royce contract. Great Britain plans to buy F-35s to replace its AV-8B Harrier "jump jets."

A White House spokesman did not return a call seeking comment Wednesday.

The change would require congressional approval. It is expected to encounter resistance from delegations representing Massachusetts, Indiana and Ohio, where Fairfield-based General Electric has production plants.

On Wednesday, Pratt & Whitney spokesman Mark Sullivan acknowledged reports that the competing engine program may be ended, but declined to comment. Noting that Pratt shipped the first flight-test F135 engine to Lockheed Martin Corp. two weeks ago, he said that "our total focus is on delivering our engines" on schedule.

Washington-based defense analyst Loren Thompson, citing information from senior Pentagon officials at the rank of general and senior defense industry officials, said Wednesday that defense planners "have killed the alternative engine."

The idea, said Thompson, of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a nonpartisan policy research institute, is to curb expenses in the $256 billion Joint Strike Fighter program.

He and other defense analysts said the Pentagon rejected an alternative approach to savings that involved dropping one of three variants of the jet. The Joint Strike Fighter, which will replace the F-16 and other aging warplanes, is designed to make conventional takeoffs and landings for the Air Force, and carrier takeoffs and landings for the Navy. For the Marines, there is a "short takeoff, vertical landing" variant.

Ending the competing engine program, which Congress ordered in 1995, would mean billions of dollars in additional sales for Pratt, Thompson said.

"What it means is that United Technologies' Pratt & Whitney unit would have a monopoly on the most popular military jet engine in the world for the next 30 years," Thompson said. "It's a very big deal."

Pratt has a policy of not disclosing the unit price of its engines because they are often heavily discounted when sold in groups, but Thompson estimated that each F135 engine would cost $5 million to $6 million.

However, he added, "Most of the revenue will come from not the initial sale of the engine, but from that ubiquitous aftermarket [for replacement parts and service] that will last 20 or 30 years" and involve customers around the world. "Each of those engine parts will be replaced two or three times."

General Electric spokesman Rick Kennedy said his company has not heard of the contract being canceled, and is "going full steam ahead" in development of the F136 engine. Testing of the engine is to start in February or March at a plant near Cincinnati, he said.

"We don't really know what's in the Department of Defense budget," he said.

Another Washington analyst specializing in military policy, who spoke on condition of not being identified, said he has seen a draft of the Pentagon budget and confirmed that it cuts the funding for the GE-Rolls-Royce contract.

Bloomberg reported that the memo from England, the deputy defense secretary, said that ending the backup-engine work would save $408 million in fiscal 2007 and $438 million the following year.

Philip Finnegan, an aerospace analyst at The Teal Group, a Fairfax, Va., consultant, said he did not know of the Pentagon's plan to end the backup engine contract, but was not surprised. "It would make sense because they're trying to find ways to save money in the JSF program," he said. "They've looked at whether to cancel a variant ... and this would be a way of saving the variants while also saving some money."

John E. Pike, director of an Alexandria, Va., defense consulting firm called GlobalSecurity.org, said the Department of Defense rarely awards two contracts for engine development for the same fighter plane. But he said some past fighter jets have been troubled by flawed engines, so there is some justification for having a backup in case problems should arise in the Pratt engine.

At the same time, he said, the Pentagon is under pressure to pare the cost of weapons systems so money can go to the Iraq war, and dumping a backup engine is an option. "You would have to say if you were looking around for some superfluous expense on the program, that one would certainly jump out at you," Pike said.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 08:05 
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I don't think it makes financial sense to fund two companies to do the same engine. Some econonies of scale have to be lost when you do that. I'd like to see the data on the F-110 vs. F-100 alternate engine experiment. Was it justified?

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 08:11 
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Well I cant help you with documentation on the 110/100 question. I can however tell you from a maintainers point of view that I much prefered the GE engine over the PW, or "pratt and whimpey" as we grew to call them. LOL

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 09:30 
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Have to agree with you M&M except we used to call them Piss and Whiskey. Not sure Pratt has built a really good engine since the J57.

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 09:39 
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the F-15 engine comp happened AFTER production began didnt it?

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 09:59 
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Actually it involved the F-16 not the 15 boomer. The AF wanted another engine supplier involved in case of supply/labor issues. They didnt want jets grounded because of a single source problem. As far as I know the AF F-15 has always flown with a PW engine. The F-15K has the GE engine however.

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 10:03 
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Didnt the E get the "Common Engine Bay"? Or was that just for various versions of the P&W?
Either way they could just let R&R have an engine deal once production started on the F-35.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 10:16 
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Common engine bay is kind of a misnomer. The F-16 went through that as well a few years back. They mod'd the bay to structurally take another manufacturer of motor but they dont interface other than that. Fuel, Air and Electrically they dont match. Kind of a stupid idea, but hey it was a workload for us.

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 12:04 
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GE... Turn and Burn....PW haul and sputter....

Their is a reason their is a 95% Switch for PW's.. its not a Boost switch it is a blow up and die switch when you need a little more AB

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 12:41 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
GE... Turn and Burn....PW haul and sputter....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

GE...Generous Electric (refering to their suspiciously optimistic thrust/fuel flow predictions), P&W...Putz & Weenie (refering to the perceived lack luster support). I don't remember the derogatory pet name we had for Rolls Royce. Can someone suggest one?

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2006, 17:38 
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Well someone's Lobby group did a good Job, and the Brits are going to be unhappy too.
And when you sell the engines "Cheap" because your going to make-up for it in "Replacement parts etc..." There's something wrong.

They should of waited for the GE model and had a chance to see what they could do before giving one "ALL THE MONEY"


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2006, 09:39 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Well someone's Lobby group did a good Job, and the Brits are going to be unhappy too.
And when you sell the engines "Cheap" because your going to make-up for it in "Replacement parts etc..." There's something wrong.

They should of waited for the GE model and had a chance to see what they could do before giving one "ALL THE MONEY"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Every action does not need to be driven by the sinister. There really doesn't need to be two sources for engines. It is unusual, in fact. That requirement tends to triple planned engine development cost since they must find and fix problems in two different engine designs, not to mention doubling propulsion related flight testing and such. I don't think it is justified here. The P&W f-119 engine is working well and doesn't seem to need an alternative. The f-135 engine is an upgrade of the -119, isn't it? The Brits are still doing the lift fan anyway, right? Maybe I don't have the big picture but, I think the case is weak for an alternative engine.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2006, 10:09 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
the F-15 engine comp happened AFTER production began didnt it?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That statement makes me think back. My recollection was that there was a paper competition for the F-100, somewhere around the F-15 contract definition phase (circa 1968?) that P&W won. I don't know if GE would have faired any better in development but P&W seemed to have some trouble that extended into flight test and operations, giving them a bad rep (reinforcing the rep for the TF-30). It was about 10 years or so later that the Derivative Fighter Engine (DFE?) was decided on in GE's favor. There might have been a competition for that one too. I can remember the original F-14B flying in the '70s with a P&W engine that was a derivative of the F-100. If I'm not mistaken, the GE F-110 was itself a derivative of the B-1 engine (the F-101) and was worked on further to be the F-118 in the B-2. Don't be too hard on P&W for the problems they had with the F-100. The engine was about 500 lbs lighter than the GE equivalent. A thousand pound weight reduction in the F-15 is hard to find. It's another example that you don't get something for nothing.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2006, 12:08 
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The Viper drivers I talk to here at Shaw say they prefer the GE over the Pratt. McIntyre ANG Base, just up the road a piece has the Pratts on their block 52's.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2006, 15:25 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but P&W seemed to have some trouble that extended into flight test and operations<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Yeah the F-15s had a lot of compressor stalls early on.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2006, 22:20 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The Brits are still doing the lift fan anyway, right? Maybe I don't have the big picture but, I think the case is weak for an alternative engine.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

If they want to pay for it themselves. The U.S. is very close to canceling the F-35B according to the latest reports. With the GE/RR engine on the chopping block, I see the Navy version going as well. When was the last time PW made a 400 series (naval) engine?

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2006, 12:15 
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Here's a quote to sum up what the Navy thinks of Pratt and Whitney: "If your engine says Pratt and Whitney on it, make sure your ejection seat says Martin Baker."

My motto: pacis per vires


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2006, 12:43 
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zero chance of the B model being cancelled, that's the only version that has no avaiable modern replacement.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2006, 15:49 
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But its replacing a machine which hasn't really shown itself to be very practical in wartime.

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2006, 19:36 
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Brits, Italians, Spaniards, U.S. Marines all rely on it because it's the only seagoing striker they can afford due to the cost of a CV.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2006, 12:12 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Here's a quote to sum up what the Navy thinks of Pratt and Whitney: "If your engine says Pratt and Whitney on it, make sure your ejection seat says Martin Baker."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

...and the GE an MB sales reps think it a really funny quote, since they have not won any competitions lately. The P&W motor in the F-22 has a stellar reputation, and so does the ACES II seat. The Navy has had some ancient success with P&W too. The J-52 (A-4, A-6) and the J-57 (F-8, A-3) come to mind. OK, the TF-30 had a pantload of problems in the A-7 and F-14. I think I just hurt my case. I'll shut up now.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2006, 12:15 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Have to agree with you M&M except we used to call them Piss and Whiskey. Not sure Pratt has built a really good engine since the J57.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The F-119 may be it.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2006, 12:21 
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Ive heard that they finally got it right with the 229 as well. The F-119 is an incredible peice of workmanship. I stand in awe of it.<img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2006, 13:14 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If they want to pay for it themselves. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
RR will get the lift engine and nozzles no matter which core engine is used, P&W or GE. This cancellation only affects the interface detail differences.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The U.S. is very close to canceling the F-35B according to the latest reports.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
That is good news to me, but I have not seen a single report of that.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With the GE/RR engine on the chopping block, I see the Navy version going as well.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I'm missing something. What does cancellation of the alternate lift engine combination have to do with the catapult launch F-35C?


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When was the last time PW made a 400 series (naval) engine?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I guess it was the TF-30 in the A-7A,B and F-14A. I don't get the "400 series" connection, unless you are referring to the GE F404 and F414 or the P&W TF-30-P-414 (the definitive F-14A engine), J-52-P-408 (A-4, EA-6B). I didn't know there was any naval designation. I thought it was a coinicidence.



Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

Edited by - a10stress on Jan 09 2006 12:16 PM

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2006, 09:56 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I guess it was the TF-30 in the A-7A,B and F-14A. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Stress, far as I know, the only engine that was ever in the A-7 was the TF-41, an Allison engine. The TF-30 was (is) an afterburning turbofan originally developed for all variants of the 'vark, including the Navy version.

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