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<b>"To be honest Snipe, I know you were just being sarcastic and not serious. I just wanted an excuse to make my point of the importance of training vs technology. No hard feelings Bro."</b>

Heh, NOW i notice that part of your post...

Training is hugely important, yes, but luck is at least as important, and THAT bitch is a fickle mistress.

And really, training or no, one day they'll build a machine that is better at ACM than people, just like they have in so many other fields of human endeavour.

Training is great, but it can only take you so far.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

I dont know what you all are argueing about...
any given airplane can shoot down any airplane on any given day.
proof is this picture, which shows how an mig-29 is gunned down by the v-22 osprey



<img src="http://www.geocities.jp/f_tamakoku/famicon/database/1991_picture/1991_03/gunsight.gif" border=0>

...and dont tell me this isnt a mig 29. it just looks like a helicopter on that pic. ok, the pilot of the mig was a former east german who collected only 20hours in the last 10 years...

"Did you know? You can use your old motor oil to fertilize your lawn! -- Environmental Protection Agency."

http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/dumb_and ... dumb13.wav


WTF... Wow!! I think I just made a timetravel and posted yesterday! cool...

Edited by - homer32 on Apr 04 2006 11:55 AM

_________________
\"My name's Pitt, and you ain't talkin' your ass outta this shit.\"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So tell me genius, when you face an ACAV for the first time, and it has no pilot, and beats your ass......what will you say then? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Snipe that ACAV will have a pilot, he will just be on the ground, and his training will be the key to winning or losing the fight. You are wrong on this one, you got called on it and now you need to let it go.

I know profiles can be faked however the Patriot has his down as a F-16C pilot and I have no need to not believe him. So not to hurt your feelings since you went to the chair force statement I must say this. Who brings the most knowledge to the table, a USAF trained pilot or a internet educated former sniper? I know you will get mad about that statement however I also hope you get over it. I still love you bro.

I also know the most of your venom was directed at Ice and it caused you to brake out with the name calling. Let's stick to facts, let the experts that fly these things share their knowledge with us without becoming armchair quarterbacks. The truth of the matter is there are only a couple of no shit pilots on this board and I for one am glad they share with us.

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

Patriot:

Lookee here my blow-hard wing-wipin' friend. I do not mind anyone having an opinion, and i do not mind them voicing it strongly, but the object here is to learn, not to institgate the ex-infantry board administrator into demonstrating that he can trade insults much better than any <b>wing-wiping chair-forcing lawndart-crashing loudmouthed off-E-sir.</b>

Take a chill pill, come back to this debate with some composure, and we'll talk(if your lawndart doesn't run out of gas first). <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Or you can spit out a trail of expletives again and force me to ban your ass with my golden BB. The choice of course, is yours.

As far as my background, it is exactly what my S/N suggests it is.

PS: If the F-22 had rotated it's wings 90 degrees it very much looks like he had an AIM-9X shot.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

<b>Snipe that ACAV will have a pilot, he will just be on the ground, and his training will be the key to winning or losing the fight.</b>

ACAV is autonomous. ACAV is the 'whats after UCAV' circlejerk.

<b>You are wrong on this one, you got called on it and now you need to let it go.</b>

I am not wrong. Training does not always make up for technology.

Or perhaps every automotive manufacturer in the world has it ALL WRONG when it comes to automated production lines?

It's just a matter of current technology. Someday they will build a plane that has no pilot, and that no human pilot can compete with.

Might be 50 years, or maybe even 100....but the day is coming.

<b>I know profiles can be faked however the Patriot has his down as a F-16C pilot and I have no need to not believe him.</b>

I have no reason to suspect he's not who he says he is. Hell, his lack of tact reinforces him being a fighter jock. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I am no expert, i have never actively tried to play myself off as one. The people i LISTEN TO INTENTLY- like Mudd, T7, A10stress, etc, ARE experts though, so i am a very well informed novice.

My invectives were dirceted at Patriot because frankly i dont feel a need to take lip from a poster with 46 posts. I dont care if he's Jesus Christ returned himself.


<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

WTF happened to all the replies on this thread?

They're all in crazy non-sequential order.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

I think its time for a "Smoke break",

I remember a few years ago we we're talking about other AF's vs the US and how the -29 vs the F-15 etc.... on "Who would Win"?
We had even agreed back then that a "Young Pilot" flying the "
BEST JET IN THE WORLD" put up against an "ACE" in a older JET
would still "KILL" the "Young pilot" even though he has the advance jet,its still the "Pilot " who's skill and flying wins.

Ever war has been the same,No matter how good your aircraft is you can still be beaten by a older airframe with a "ACE" in the seat.

Now can the ACE get beaten ,yes after time but it doesnt happen much.
Skill,Training,Hours and experiance rule the Day.

Computers are great, but just like the one were using to see this board arent "FOOL PROOF". We cuss them from time to time due to a "Fault" and we need the "Patch".

Plus screen names are "Names" and sometimes misleading,.

So thats just "The Old Goose" personal opinion.

Mr Patriot Sir I salute your 35 yrs of service .

<img src=newicons/smiley_salute.gif border=0 align=middle>

Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

What’s the ratio of KIA Iraqi's vs. US and British troops?

I would like to think that superior training, tactics & people makes as big as difference now, as it has always. The F-4F Wildcat was clearly outclassed by the Japanese Zero; it wasn't until 1943 did the US Navy have a fighter that could achieve parity with the Zero in service. Yet USN aviators never experienced a negative exchange ratio with the Japanese in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.

It makes me ill to chalk up human lives in terms of "exchange rates" but the numbers don't lie, even if our losses are scrutinized far than the enemy more in terms of political fodder. This country is so used to kicking ass, that they judge military in terms of how well they kick ass, not realizing that this is war and people die in far away lands.

I still believe that our people make the biggest fundamental difference.

The VFA-103 F-18F gun track footage validates that completely.

Jolly Rodgers Rock! even in Hornets...

<b>What’s the ratio of KIA Iraqi's vs. US and British troops?</b>

As a whole it's probably immense, but there have been specific engagements where the enemy achieved near parity despite massively less support and training.

The Battle of Roberts Ridge in A-stan was one such battle.

<b>I would like to think that superior training, tactics & people makes as big as difference now, as it has always.</b>

It is most certainly helpful, but it cannot overcome bad luck or a massive disparity in hardware.

Example: Put Michael Shumacher in a bone stock Chevy Malibu and me in a new Porsche 996 turbo, and i'd abuse him all day long, on any course.

<b>The F-4F Wildcat was clearly outclassed by the Japanese Zero; it wasn't until 1943 did the US Navy have a fighter that could achieve parity with the Zero in service. Yet USN aviators never experienced a negative exchange ratio with the Japanese in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.</b>

That has a lot to do with tactics as well. Good tactics go a huge way toward overcoming materiel or numerical superiority.

And of course the reverse is true as well. Zhukov's boys were nowhere near as well trained as Der Fuhrer's, but Zhukov won the war.

Sometimes, sheer numbers will outweigh ANY amount of training or materiel disparity. WWII on the Eastern front is exactly such an example.

<b>I still believe that our people make the biggest fundamental difference.</b>

That is not the defacto view of the military leadership. If they believed that we wouldn't need Raptors, top notch pilots in F15s would do.

<b>The VFA-103 F-18F gun track footage validates that completely.</b>

1 on 1 without luck intervening, it sure does.

The same thing happened when the M1 first came out. The M60 units slapped em around for about a year or so until the M1 guys figured out their new tank.

And that was the end of that...

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

<b> Sometimes, sheer numbers will outweigh ANY amount of training or materiel disparity. WWII on the Eastern front is exactly such an example. </b>

The British Royal Armies antics with the Zulus are probably a better example. The Russians had arguably the best tank of the war in the T-34, and many more of them. Stalin was a prick, but at least he had the good sense to listen to the Generals he did not purge.

<b>And of course the reverse is true as well. Zhukov's boys were nowhere near as well trained as Der Fuhrer's, but Zhukov won the war.</b>

Yeah, but Hitler was an idiot. The “Kick the door in & the whole rotten structure will fall” attitude was stupid. The Wermacht was hamstrung by Htilers ineptness as a leader. We have had Eastern Front discussions on here before, so I will leave it at that. Stalin had his flag over Berlin when it was said and done.

<b>That is not the defacto view of the military leadership. If they believed that we wouldn't need Raptors, top notch pilots in F15s would do.</b>

It is. But we want the best people in the best equipment, and when/if parity is achieved from a weapons system standpoint our people will make the difference, just like they have had since the colonial Army & Navy. That’s why the learning curve is so steep for a prospective U.S. Naval Aviator or USAF Tactical Fighter pilot. One of my oldest childhood friends is flying B-52’s, which is way cool. But his first choice was F-15’s. I don’t think he ever received less than a 4.0 his whole life.





Edited by - chadrewsky on Apr 04 2006 1:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So tell me, when you face an ACAV for the first time, and it has no pilot, and beats your ass......what will you say then? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That ACAV will have a pilot, he will just be on the ground. Guess what his training will be the difference between losing or winning the fight also.

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

<b>So you're telling me that Iraqi insurgents are as well trained as US troops?</b>

Snipe, we both know damned well that, that is not what I was talking about. There is a huge differance between walking or driving into a booby trap, IED, and loosing out in a 1 to 1 fight. Granted, it doesn't take a PHD to rig a truck to blowup and take out half a convoy, and that is were the VAST MAJORITY of our losses are coming from over there. Unfortunately, IED's take the skill out of the equation, much like laying land mines. Anyone, even the most tacticly savy, can have the piss poor luck to walk or drive into one of these, and you should know that better than me.

As for the UCAV being able to out perform a piloted fighter. I don't know for sure on that. If it could, it would only be due to these facts. First, a UCAV would be a much smaller target and tougher to hit. Second, a UCAV would be able to take greater than 9 G's without blacking out. However, until we manage to create a true AI, Thinking UCAV, it's just science fiction. I will admit, that somewhere in the future, if such a killing machine is produced, it would be possible for a UCAV to dog fight and win over a piloted craft. Hell, anything is possible.

OK this is really screwy. I didn't realize the post on this thread were all out of order and Catawhompus. I just found your last, at least I think it was your last, post Snipe. No Worries. I think we'er both back on the same page. Yep, bad luck can happen to anybody regardless of training, and technology, when and if we let it get that far, possibly could replace and outdo us all. Unless of course, the ACAV's software is from Micosoft, then it'd be lucky to get off the ground.<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle> Another problem I can see with ACAVs would be the possiblity of hacking into it. Now that's scary.

"Slow is Fast - Fast is Slow"


Edited by - ice pirate on Apr 04 2006 1:53 PM

_________________
Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

Mudd sent these in email today for posting. (apparently the tard is unable to hit the site from his current FOL.) we always thought he sucked at the SNAP!

Story.

SuperBugs spanking F22's

<img src="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a349/mrmudd/F18FGUNF-2203.jpg" border=0>


<img src="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a349/mrmudd/F18FGUNF-2202.jpg" border=0>

hey come on man everybody here KNOWS that's impossible!!
( you made my day lol )

A 45 has a muzzle.
A 9mm has a bullet vent.

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Details man. I'm not familiar with the Superbugs. What airframe is doing the shooting and is the pilot anyone we know? Pics are great, thanks for posting them.

"Slow is Fast - Fast is Slow"

_________________
Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

Superbug refers to SuperHornet, air to air is USUALLY but not exclusively the two seat F model.

A 45 has a muzzle.
A 9mm has a bullet vent.

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

This was an 18F's recorded Gun track on a F22.

Unless we know the parameters of the engagement it means less than nothing.

Very cool pix though.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

so mean rules might have been a visual fight. Do we really think the F-18 would get a first shot in a BVR fight.

Well for all we know the F-22 is wagging his wings after he already gunned down the Hornet.

We do know that when F-15Cs and F-16Cs have gone up against the Raptor the results were utterly one sided. I HARDLY expect the F-18(any model) to do any better.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

Arent we all forgetting one simple rule?<img src=newicons/idea.gif border=0 align=middle>

Airframe is not the only factor in relation to the scenario........Alot depends on the man sitting in that seat!<img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle>

In a world of AIM-9X, helmet sights, Stealth, and supercomputer managed battlesystems im wondering how much that's true nowadays.

Of course i am being sarcastic....but only a little.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

Well it is pretty obvious you don't know jackshit.

It's ALWAYS the better pilot's fight.

And I've seen a pilot loose in the brief.

Actually, I'VE beaten a pilot in a brief.

If we Look at it in a realworld type scenerio. Good Vs bad. No the 18F's wouldnt of made it past the BVR Gap. Provided the F22's flew their mission Correctly. If not. It is not Like the F22 is cornering the market with super alien ordnance technology. The Aircraft is equipped with the same shit almost every fighter in DOD is.

The Story behind the Engagement is that VF103 SuperBugs were doing a Dact as part of the F22 BFM Ride. The F22 in question was flown by a student at Tyndal. It was a Specific ROE in WVR GUNZO. they are using the Superhornets exclusively for this. A Superhornet is a great performer in a GUN Fight Scenario. They are very well Equipped in the Corner Fight.

IF you looked at the Angles. The 9x wouldnt have done shit. It could not, It would be in the bay under the aircraft. If you knew the WEZ of the aim 9x you would understand why. I looked at your Profile, and assuming by your name your not a Pilot. You would have no grasp. But in sheer stupidity you pop off about the F22 being a superweapon. Sorry but the Superbug and almost all Fighters today are flying the JHMCS system. The U.S. Navy had their system flying First, as they knew what they wanted in the beginning symbology wise, While we in the airforce Nitpicked for 4 extra Years. the Superbug comes from the Factory 9x JHMCS ready.


F22 is a Great Bird, Butt it is beatable if the pilot fails employing the aircraft properly




Edited by - thepatriot on Apr 05 2006 06:26 AM

Well Snipe I think you just got schooled by one of Muddy's buddies?

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

Snipe, I'm really surprised by you. We've had the discussion before about High Tech vs Training. The same rule applies here.

You can have the greatest gun known to mankind, complete with GPS guided bullets, carried by brick, and he wouldn't stand a chance against a well trained man with a .22LR pistol. Training is the key.

As the F-22 jock was a student, it makes since that he's getting flamed by an older and less technically advanced airframe in the hands of a fully qualified IP in an airframe he'd probably been flying for years. It takes time to learn all the new technology to the point of true proficency, where a pilot can engage the tools without concious thought. It also makes the student realize that his new toy with all the bells and whistles can still become a smoking hole in the ground if not properly handeled. Kind of reminds them that they are still only humans, and humans do screw up from time to time.

To be honest Snipe, I know you were just being sarcastic and not serious. I just wanted an excuse to make my point of the importance of training vs technology. No hard feelings Bro.

"Slow is Fast - Fast is Slow"

_________________
Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option