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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 13:26 
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Farfrompukin
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What happened to the B-1B?
Haven´t heard about it for a long time. It wasn´t used against iraq was it?



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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 13:38 
The Bone was used extensively in Iraq.

That strike against Saddam late in the war was executed by a Bone.



"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 13:46 
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Farfrompukin
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The Bone?? LOL

Why that name?
Where are they stationed?

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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 13:52 
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B-1; B-one; B-ONE; Bone!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 14:07 
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oops.
ekskuse me i´m frrom gerrmany...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
could have guessed that if I hadn´t drunk that red wine for lunch... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> (but hey, it wasn´t from france!)


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PostPosted: 28 Apr 2003, 14:15 
No prob. ;)

That is the aircrafts universal nickname. No one calls it the "Lancer".

They were stationed in Diego Garcia i believe, for the war.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 15:21 
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[quote]
What happened to the B-1B?
Haven´t heard about it for a long time. It wasn´t used against iraq was it?
------------

They had 37 or so flying in Iraq. The Bones had some problems.

The below is from www.pogo.org----------------------

Testing on the B-1 revealed a host of critical shortcomings. The trouble is, it came too late: Serious design flaws weren't discovered until 1988, after the last of 100 B-1s rolled off the assembly line and were delivered to the Air Force. Ever since, the B-1 has experienced serious setbacks that required costly fixes.


By 1988, testing revealed that the B-1's sophisticated avionics system - its threat-warning and radar-jamming systems - had a serious structural flaw. Essentially, the aircraft's defensive and offensive systems were jamming each other. The result was that the pilot had to choose between protecting himself or carrying out his mission. More than a decade later, some of the plane's avionics problems have yet to be fully resolved.


In 1991, when the U.S. launched the air war against Iraq, the entire B-1 fleet was grounded due to catastrophic engine blade failures. Munitions limitations, inadequate crew training, and electronic warfare deficiencies also played a part in the aircraft not making an appearance during the Persian Gulf War.


Also in 1991, it was publicly revealed that although the B-1's mission included flying at high altitudes, its de-icing system didn't work. This limited the aircraft's ability to fly in bad and cold weather; Air Force operating instructions required that the B-1's engines not be operated when the temperature was 47 degrees Fahrenheit or less, the humidity was below 50 percent, or when visible moisture like rain or sleet was present at cold temperatures.


Upgrades to the bomber have since cost taxpayers billions of added dollars, and some testing of the aircraft's avionics upgrades has slipped until 2003.
Shortcomings:

The B-1 was originally designed as a cold-war long-range stealth bomber capable of carrying and delivering nuclear weapons deep into the Soviet Union. However, since the end of the cold war, the bomber has been in a state of transition. This shift began in 1993 and by 1997, the B-1 was officially reassigned to support Air Force conventional wartime missions and deliver precision-guided munitions. But the transition continues and problems remain.


The B-1 has, and continues to have, troublesome spare parts shortages, partly caused by a lack of funding, that seriously detract from its mission readiness. As recently as last fall, the aircraft was reporting a mission capable rate of 51.9 percent, the lowest of the Air Force's bomber fleet. During Fiscal Year 1998, the cannibilazation rate for the B-1B was 99 percent - virtually every aircraft that flew a mission had a part cannibalized from another B-1B.


The Air Force continues to report a large number of troublesome parts on the B-1, particularly related to the aircraft's aging avionics, cockpit displays, and its ALQ-161 electronic jammer.


Many of the B-1's munitions upgrades will not be completed until about 2006, and the defensive avionics upgrades will not be completed until about 2008. The testing delays have been the result of problems in developing the aircraft's new avionics flight software, according to the Department of Defense's Director, Operational Test and Evaluation. (DOT&E).


In its latest report, the DOT&E said that problems with the design of cockpit controls and displays could mean the aircraft will not be able to employ as many as 25 percent of its smart weapons.


Without upgrades to the aircraft's defensive avionics, the B-1's contribution to future conflicts could be seriously diminished, DOT&E said. "The B-1B may be limited to a stand-off role or use only after the air defense threat is suppressed," said the DOT&E's report.


Total Number of Aircraft: 100; Total Program Cost: $32.5 billion; Average Unit Cost: $325 million.
POGO's Fighting with Failures Series documents Pentagon shortcuts in testing and operational requirements that have resulted in weapons that do not work, that waste taxpayer dollars, or that are not suitable for combat.

Sources: Fiscal Year 2000 Annual Report, Director, Operational Test and Evaluation, March 2001; B-1B Conventional Upgrades, NSIAD-96-52R. December 1995; B-1B Bomber: Evaluation of Air Force Report on B-1B Operational Readiness Assessment, GAO/NSIAD-95-151, July 1995; Testimony, Nancy Kingsbury, Director, Office of Air Force Issues for National Security and International Affairs Division, General Accounting Office, before the House Government Operations Committee, Subcommittee on Legislation and National Security, March 1991; "Lack of Funds, Spare Parts Keep B-1Bs on the Ground," Air Force Times, September 18, 2000.
-------------------

B-1B is another classic when you don't flight test properly and go into production.

Jack


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 16:09 
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No doubt its political contreversey had to do with its flawed procurement-In theory this design is a winner. Bad testing made this bird a stinker.

Jack, everybody has a problem with everything:
I'm skeptical if its true whistle blowing or just political nay-saying

http://www.pogo.org/p/defense/do-020515-failures-b2bomber.html

The B-2 bomber is a stealthy all-wing jet aircraft designed for worldwide conventional and nuclear weapon delivery missions.
Short Cuts on the Way to Acquisition:

Production of the B-2 was approved in 1987, but the first round of operational testing of the aircraft was not completed until 1997. This long-term period of concurrent production and testing of the aircraft resulted in an array of technical problems and huge program cost overruns. Originally, the Air Force planned to procure 133 of the aircraft for $58.2 billion, but ended up with only 21 B-2s at a total program cost of more than $44 billion. The price tag per aircraft: $2.2 billion, four times more than original estimates, according to the General Accounting Office.


Because development, testing and production were occurring simultaneously, the Air Force agreed to accept aircraft from contractor Northrop Grumman Corporation that did not meet its operational requirements. In fact, most of the aircraft were delivered late and with "significant deviations and waivers," according to the GAO.


The first lot of B-2s, delivered in 1989, were equipped with limited combat capability and lacked the ability to launch guided conventional weapons.


The second lot, delivered in 1996, were configured to have an interim capacity to launch nuclear and conventional missions.


The final lot, delivered in 1997, were models with systems supposedly capable of performing all of the bomber's stated mission nuclear and conventional goals. The new systems have yet to be fully tested.


The contractor's inability to deliver the most sophisticated test and production aircraft on time, meant that the B-2 program has essentially been in a continuous state of munitions and avionics upgrade - or rehabilitation. Since most of the aircraft delivered early in the program had less sophisticated munitions and avionics systems, the B-2 program has yet to meet its mission requirements and is still undergoing extensive testing and upgrading.


The technical problems, changes and upgrades to the Air Force's B-2 requirements resulted in an extension of B-2 testing from a planned four-year, 3,600-hour flight test program to an eight-year, 5,000-hour test program. Ironically, even the extra testing has not seemed to resolve some of the lingering technical problems resulting from the Air Force's catch-as-catch-can acquisition strategy.
Shortcomings:

The B-2's most distinguishing characteristic, it’s stealth or ability to evade enemy radar, has been unreliable and is still concern No. 1. The low observable features and materials that give the aircraft stealth are not durable, and require costly and time-consuming maintenance. Although the B-2 was used for bombing missions in Kosovo, its stealthiness was not tested during the air campaign. Without stealth, the B-2 is just another overpriced bomber, since it is far most costly to build and maintain than the 1950s-vintage B-52 bomber, but does not carry a bigger payload or go faster than the B-52.


The B-2's mission capable rate, the time an aircraft is available to perform a mission, is far below the 60 percent required rate. When down time to keep the aircraft stealthy is included, the B-2 had a 33 percent mission capable rate over the past six months.


A critical part of the B-2's mission is to quickly destroy targets anywhere in the world from bases in the continental United States. Testing has identified problems in the ability to quickly generate and launch a mission, particularly when a mission is not pre-planned.


To perform a sustained bombing capability during wartime, B-2s need to be deployed overseas. So far, this has not been possible since the aircraft must be stored in costly, special climate-controlled hangers that prevent damage to its radar-absorbing skin.


The B-2's defensive avionics system - its ability to identify enemy threats - is still rated unsatisfactory by the Pentagon's chief tester, director, Operational Test and Evaluation. The DOT&E has criticized the system's for "inaccurate information, a cluttered display, and an excessive workload to operate the system" when unanticipated threats pop up during a mission.


Total Number of Aircraft: 21; Total Program Cost: $44.3 billion; Average Unit Cost: $2.1 billion.
POGO's Fighting with Failures Series documents Pentagon shortcuts in testing and operational requirements that have resulted in weapons that do not work, that waste taxpayer dollars, or that are not suitable for combat.

Sources: Fiscal Year 2000 Annual Report, Director, Operational Test and Evaluation, March 2001; Defense Acquisitions: Achieving B-2A Bomber Operational Requirements, GAO/NSIAD-99-97, June 1999; B-2 Bomber: Additional Costs to Correct Deficiencies and Make Improvements, GAO/NSIAD-98-152, June 1998; B-2 Bomber: Cost and Operational Issues, GAO/NSIAD-97-181; August 1997; B-2 Bomber: Status of Cost, Development and Production, GAO/NSIAD-95-164, July 1995; B-2 Bomber: Cost to Complete 20 Aircraft Is Uncertain, GAO/NSIAD-94-217, September 1994.



Edited by - Tritonal on Apr 29 2003 3:16 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 18:15 
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[quote]
No doubt its political contreversey had to do with its flawed procurement-In theory this design is a winner. Bad testing made this bird a stinker.

Jack, everybody has a problem with everything:
I'm skeptical if its true whistle blowing or just political nay-saying

---------

Flawed testing is a killer. We lost one B-1 because they didn't have an ILS in it and it crashed in some nasty weather. We lost another one out of Diego on the way to Afgan over some blown engines or close to it. Another one was lost in the Mid-Atlantic region when shutting down one engine and they ended up shutting them all down. Wiring problem.

In theory doesn't mean squat. The Warthog has proven using tried and trued practices you end up with a very good platform.

100 odd billion taxbucks for 50 B-1s and B-2s flying at one time, isn't a real efficient way to run a Heavy Bomber force.

B-2 climate controlled hangars cost over 100 million tax bucks.

Jack


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 19:32 
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Every design begins with theories, execution of the plans matters is the downfall. Piercing the air-space, super sonic, at low-level to avoid sophisticated air defenses sounds like a workable theory. Too bad its threat detection and avoidance system do great at only making real heavy paper weights.

The KISS method that made the Warthog a distinct winner was a theory. I also wonder if the K.I.S.S. method of the Warthog will work for every air frame design. Maybe, maybe not-I'm not in the business.

What doesn't mean squat is the irrational conjectures we sometimes are fed from the not-so-rock-solid designs in the works primarily before hard flight data/research can be applied.(eg V-22)





Edited by - Tritonal on Apr 29 2003 6:34 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 20:53 
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[quote]
Every design begins with theories, execution of the plans matters is the downfall. Piercing the air-space, super sonic, at low-level to avoid sophisticated air defenses sounds like a workable theory. Too bad its threat detection and avoidance system do great at only making real heavy paper weights.

--------

Designs need to start with the warriors and what actually works in combat. 40 second Boyd had to lie and cheat to bring in the Warthog and the Viper.

We never launch a raid without some serious support either, starting with tankers, Queer birds, AWACs, JTADS, and other assets.

DOD needs to have an honest lessons learned from Iraq, vice no lessons learned from Nam.

Jack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 23:05 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Designs need to start with the warriors and what actually works in combat. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Won't disagree with that. What's a "Queerbird"?

I'm curious and wonder how many lessons there are to learn in a three-week conflict.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Back to the B-1 -It was a interim aircraft IMO. It doesn't have the loiter ability of the BUFF and it doesn't have the stealth capability of a Spirit. What it has the most of is speed and the biggest payload.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 09:33 
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Farfrompukin
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Thanks to you Jack and Tritonal for the detailed information.
The only bombers they showed in the news here were the B-52´s. Probably because they are operating from England.
I got the impression that the old B-52´s accomplished a lot more missions than Bone or B-2.


"I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!"
-Homer, The Simpsons

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 10:42 
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[quote]
Thanks to you Jack and Tritonal for the detailed information.
The only bombers they showed in the news here were the B-52´s. Probably because they are operating from England.
I got the impression that the old B-52´s accomplished a lot more missions than Bone or B-2.

---------------

Buffs probably flew more missions than the B-1s and 2s combined.

Queerbirds=electronic warfare birds. EA-6Bs primarily.

Jack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 11:04 
The EA-6B is known as "The Queer" in the fleet.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 13:08 
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If the tax payers want more <i>bang</i> for their buck then it would be sound to stay with the BUFF-the approx retirement age is 2045.
It might be the only weapon system to be operational for 100 years(30,000 flight hours). It would have outlived many of the pilots that have flown her.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 17:54 
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Farfrompukin
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That´s impressing.
I like the BUFF.

Arc Lights must have been absolute horror to the enemy.




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