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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2004, 15:24 
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Can KC-135's refuel probe & drogue airplanes? What do you think is the percentage of flying boom versus probe & drogue refuelings done by Air Force Tankers now? Is p&d a necessity for the USAF or a nice to have for inter service operability. What is the Airbus Industie experience with flying booms? How can Airbus underbid Boeing with a bigger airplane in an area where they have minimal experience? Why would the US government ever buy a European transport and thereby undermine one of our premier industrial linchpins? It's insane. Maybe Boeing should withdraw the 767 proposal and propose new KC-10's instead. They will probably meet all desirements. Of course the service will not obtain them before the year 2015. Boeing should no-bid this fiasco now. They can not overcome this bad blood. Even if they obtain a contract, it is bound to be a money loser. Politicians on both sides of the aisle are angry with them. I hope Maverick Mc Cain is happy with his handiwork here. He stoked the fire. The Dems are delerious with satisfaction that another Republican project is on the rocks (even though it would put Americans to work). Republicans are angry that the financial deal on these tankers makes them look bad. This project started out as a quick fix for tanker shortfalls and has turned into a greed fest with taxpayer's money and political capital as currency. Perhaps we should squeeze Airbus for a best and final offer and then force them to perform to that price. It will cripple the EU because of the subsidies required, or force them to capitulate. At least we could salvage some entertainment from all this.

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2004, 15:33 
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Some KC-135s and KC-10s have dual refuelling points on the wingtips.


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 05:23 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-135 Check paragraph 6.

Those that haven't had the wingtip conversion can do probe & drogue, but the boom has to be swapped out. While some -E's are being converted to -R models, alot are still being sent to the Boneyard...bottom line- overall loss of mission capability while Nero (Washington) fiddles around.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 06:54 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...bottom line- overall loss of mission capability while Nero (Washington) fiddles around.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


Amen!

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 08:12 
Lot of that going on nowadays.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 12:35 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

"We're committed to final assembly in the U.S.," Murphy said. "Stay tuned."

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

There is no way setting up a second production line in the US for A330's makes financial sense. Boeing should be able to beat that price easily, while still making a profit for the stockholders. The only way to make the A330 price competitive is with massive European subsidies and risky Wall Street shenanigans that will end up bilking investors of Billions of $$$. Maybe the explaination is in the fine print of "final assembly" wording. The US government should be in a position to take advantage of a good deal with Boeing. The 767 airliner market is saturated and they have made all the sales possible. The assembly line is lukewarm and getting colder. The fly-away price of a new 767 airfame should be very attractive. Everyone could have won if this leasing idea was scuttled in favor of buying "green" 767's from Boeing and competing the tanker modification effort. Several US (or foreign) modification houses would have had qualified bids. Does anyone know who started this leasing notion? I'm betting that it was probably a middleman outfit that stood to make a good cut from the cash flow.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 13:37 
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Vette if you think any Airbus product is better than the 757 / 767 line from Boeing, I think I should like the name of the bakery you buy from, because they must make some great heroin biscuits.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 14:20 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The leasing was started by that lady who headed the tanker program at Boeing for the Air Force and whom I beleive was relieved when all this came about to the public.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I believe you are refering to Darleen Druyun, who was a powerful procurement Czar at the Pentagon prior to her Boeing employment. She did not head up the tanker program, but there were some other possible conflict of interest things against her that did touch the tanker project, e.g. I think she recommended hiring her son-in-law as an executive at Boeing, and he was involved in the tankers. I don't think anyone has accused her of anything but the appearance of corruption yet. She might have had favorable reviews of the leasing idea (I'm not sure) but she did not originate it. I'm looking for a Wall Street banking firm. It sounds alot like some of the "Limited Partnership" scams they sold me in the 1980's. I'm sorry, do I sound bitter?

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2004, 14:42 
The Pentagon and the MIC are up to their eyeballs in corruption...no secret there.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2004, 09:54 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If Airbus wants to still under-bid Boeing and build them in the US, letting the people of the EU subsidize the USAF on her A330 tankers than why the hell not should we let them! :)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

In spite of my inclination to take advantage of the Europeans, it is not ethical to encourage companies to lose money on business deals. Good faith bids are the way to go, but I'm aware that competitive optimism can delude and deceive. If they can make money with a lower bid, by all means they should get consideration. However, if they are deliberately lowballing to wedge into North America, it will cause a price war that will hurt industry profitability and health for all companies. Realistically, I think it is impossible for Airbus to establish the infrastructure and organization in the US to compete with Boeing without a huge up-front investment that is not included in the bid. Maybe they can convince some suckers (sorry, risk taking entrpreneurs) to invest their money competing with Boeing on their home turf, but I don't like the odds. Boeing may look weak now, but they have been worse off before.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2004, 13:58 
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If this is going to be an open competition, the entire deal should be off. It was no secret that it was intended for Boeing in the first place. This is a made-up controversy. No one in the world thought any other company offer was viable given the time, money and political constraints. If it is going to be a "fair" competition according to the established procedures, I think my organization can make a better tanker than Airbus. We have advantages over them. We have a design and manufacturing organization that is set up to do business with the govt. already. We have sustantial existing facilities in-country. We can beat anything they offer with our own clean sheet of paper design. I promise meeting 30 of 27 requirements on paper. There will be no French company building tankers for the USAF in the US or overseas. Bring it on! We'll beat them on the drawing board, on the bottom line and on the ramp.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2004, 15:27 
"2004 March 10: Air Force Secretary James Roche withdraws from Army secretary nomination, citing the tanker scandal. "

Very good news.

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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2004, 08:02 
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Since we have only seen one side of this "controversy", let's investigate the Air Force position.


<i>Air Force Statement on Tanker Leasing (28 March 2002)
STATEMENT ON TANKER LEASING
The results of the Air Refueling Tanker Request For Information (RF1) have clearly demonstrated that only the Boeing Corporation can currently meet the requirements of Section 8159 of the FY02 Appropriations Act. Therefore, the Commercial Derivative Air Refueling Aircraft (CDARA) team will proceed to negotiate a lease with Boeing and develop a business case. The results will be reported back to Congress in the summer of 2002.
The CDARA team concluded its analysis on the results of our RFI on air refueling aircraft. The RFIs were specifically released to Boeing and Airbus (EADS) to gauge the available technology to meet our air refueling requirements. This industry input was vital to properly bound and define the business case called for by the 2002 Appropriations Bill and determine if competition was practical.
The overall assessment of the RFI data shows that the EADS offering presents a <b>higher risk technical approach and a less preferred financial arrangement.</b> First, EADS lacks relevant tanker experience and needs to develop an air refueling boom and operator station, making their approach a significantly higher risk. Second, a comparison of the net present values of the aircraft recommended by Boeing and EADS establishes Boeing as the preferred financial option. Third, the size difference of the EADS-proposed KC-330 results in an 81% larger ground footprint compared to the KC-135E it would replace, whereas the Boeing 767 is only 29% larger. The KC-330 increase in size does not bring with it a commensurate increase in available air refueling offload. Finally, the EADS aircraft would demand a greater infrastructure investment and dramatically limits the aircraft's ability to operate effectively in worldwide deployment.
Representatives from EADS will receive a detailed debrief on the results of our analysis. The AF encourages EADS to continue their air refueling boom and other tanker developmental efforts in order to ensure a vibrant and fully competitive global defense industrial base well into the future. </i>


I'm sure some people are thinking "That's a bunch of spin and meant to deceive us, I'm not that dumb", but what if it is the other guys that are spinning? It's not that easy to tell whose attempting deception. People that are smooth talkers could probably make a convincing case for DC-3's as the new tanker. The lesson here is people believe what they want to, this project is hopelessly tainted, and it is better to stick the tried and true bureaucratic proceedures. At least all the rules are known, and their are established ways to cheat and get away with it.
FYI, Some press releases seem to claim that Airbus can build 507000 lb gross weight A330 for less than Boeing can build a 395000 lb 767. This is fantastic. We should investigate how they do this and incorporate their secrets in our own operations.

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2004, 11:04 
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This is turning into a dialogue between the two of us, BV. I can see that you are agitated about this deal but I don't think we are communicating our positions too well. I'll start over. The original intent of this thing was to get tankers into inventory faster than the AF had planned. The reason they did not plan to buy them now was because of the massive future commitment of funds for C-17, F-22, F-35, C-130J etc. aircraft. Many people in and out of the Air Force had the opinion that it is a ticking time bomb to have 90% of refuelling capacity in an asset that will be upwards of 50 years old. The risk of a massive fleet grounding is considerable, even with constant vigilance. So, after 9-11 these people, which undoubtedly included Boeing representatives as well as members of Congress and the AF, pushed for a resolution of this percieved problem. Sure, some were motivated by greed and power, but others were legitimately concerned. I imagine, the lease idea was some brainchild of a financial wizard that responded to a lament that the Air Force just didn't have all the cash flow necessary to do all the things they needed to do. Maybe they were connected with that RAF lease deal thing for the C-17 and thought it was successful. Just like families and companys do in the real world, they responded to the siren call that a lease deal will allow you to get the jet you want with a minimum monthly outlay. Suddenly (you think) you can afford it. If you examine the AF lease deal and the justification that goes with it, it was never going to be cheaper than buying. It only got them the tankers earlier with a monthly payment they could afford, and it was worth the extra cost to get them sooner. The centerpiece of McCain's argument is that we should live within our means and not be tempted to over extend, at least not this way. His rhetoric is a bit over the top and hyperbolic, but that is how you get people to notice in the political world. There is always the possibility that he is settling an old score too, killing two birds with one stone. Anyway, the rest of the Congress overruled him and authorized the tanker lease deal. Remember, everybody knows it cost more to lease, rather than buy. It was never concealed. I don't think they would have authorized this deal if it were not a Boeing product involved. Shoring up the US commercial aircraft industry was an added intention after the 9-11 attacks. It was in the best interests of all elected officials to preserve high value manufacturing jobs in the US. (As an aside, I do seem to remember that the USAF leased some Lear Jets back in the 80's. It was for a similar reason. All those Sabreliners were wearing out and the VIP's needed first class transportation, but they spent all the procurement money.) During the "due dillegence" phase, the AF asked Airbus to propose something equivalent. It was not realistic to think that Airbus had a shot at this project, it was only a negotiating tool to get the best out of Boeing. Of couse, knowing this, the Airbus proposal stuck it to Boeing by using the most optimistic schedules and favorable assumptions. They knew they would never need to perform on that proposal, so why not look as good as possible so the next time they can be considered a competitor? Now, about the A330 tanker. There is no doubt that Airbus Industrie could make a satisfactory tanker, given time and money, but why? The difference in potential performance between the A330 and 767 tankers is not worth discussing. One might have a little more available fuel offload at 1500 miles out than the other, but a reversal of fortunes may occur in airport performance. One would be smaller and cheaper but the other has more growth potential. They would be of equivalent utility. Neither one would be as optimized for the tanker role as the KC-10's and KC-135's are. For instance, the take off fuel fraction for the optimized tankers is about 60%, and for the commercial conversions, about 50%. What I'm getting at here is "better is the enemy of good". The extra time it would take to convert an A330 would kill the project right there because the whole lease thing depends on accelerating the procurement. Otherwise the finances don't work out. The 767 has that problem trying to meet some of the "desirements". That is probably why many features were negotiated out. Any delay jeopardizes the whole scheme. A serious full court press to have the A330 considered will cause that delay, and more. Collapse of the deals would result. This might allow companies like Lockheed and Boeing to synthesize a superior military tanker concept, which I would wholeheartedly support. It makes work for the working man, right? Those KC-135's are good till 2040 anyway. It says so in McCain's arguments. They will only be 80 years old then, only just broken in.

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