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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2004, 07:59 
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004, 07:43
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Mainly out of curiosity, but for those with the knowledge, can we get a comparison (in hind sight of course, witch is never fair) of the winning f-35 jsf versus the the losing Boeing version?

Exactly how did the two planes compare for what both companies were given as design parameters, and how did the two planes compare in a head to head match?

Not trying to play monday morning quarterback at all, but considering the weight woes of the f-35, and out of curiosity for the un-informed here, but were did all this weight that needs to be trimmed off come form? Is this part of the original aircraft, new requirements or what?

Kinda curious about both topics, and pretty uninformed, so any help would be appriciated.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2004, 12:22 
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A comparison based on complete data is impossible for us because the Gov't will not release the data. This is good because there could be some proprietery stuff in there that they want to keep to themselves. We don't need the official data to handicap this race though. Before the flying phase of the JSF program even started, the Boeing design was found to be lacking in performance, especially the Navy CV version. They offered a completely redesigned version, with conventional tail surfaces, in the actual proposal and continued building the deficient one. The delusional rationale was said to be that Boeing was selling its engineering expertise, which it would prove by building a non compliant airplane and, by-golly, proving it really is non compliant in flight test. Let's face it, Boeing had to beat expectations to win, and then only if Lockheed fell flat on its face. In the end, the Boeing jet performed less than predicted, at least in the critical vertical mode stuff. They demonstrated that they had a lot of work to do to get the required vertical thrust out of the system and even had an incident or two of "reingestion", a dreaded propulsion malfunction. They had to do their testing at sea level and with some bits removed to give a little more weight margin. By contrast, the Lockheed team was able to do all their testing in the high desert in California, indicating they had lift to spare for the flight test weights. The results of the competition were determined overwhelmingly from vertical take off/hover superiority of the X-35 and then they rubbed Boeing's nose in it by a short takeoff, clean-up, acceleration to supersonic, return to base and landing vertically. The X-32 could not demonstrate those things in one mission because they had to leave many doors behind to save weight.

The weight problems the F-35 is in now come from optimistic expectaions of what the parts would weigh, combined with conflicts arising from manufacturing requests (cost management) and international committee tampering. Right now they have let the cost and mission performance of the STOVL F-35B float a little bit to allow some weight reductions. They also got the final bit from increased thrust. They think it is all worked out but the parts have not been detail designed yet. Keep watching for the next crisis, which will probably be affordability.

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2004, 14:10 
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004, 07:43
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cool, exactly what i was looking for, i had always wondered but never new if the planes were close or not performance wise, apprently they weren't.

Thanks for the info!


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2004, 09:39 
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I much prefered the Boeing jet over "Raptor light" before they went to the tailed version. After the fly off when I heard Boeing admit that LockMart had the better design I figured it must have been a blow-out for LockMart in performance.

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 02:16 
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Joined: 31 Mar 2004, 11:34
Posts: 139
WHISKEY TANGO FOX, OVER?

I thought Curt was done posting on here. Didn't someone beat him with the troll beating stick a while ago?

Someone needs to rewire the seeker noggin in a JDAM, set it on inane babbling, and let it fly in his general direction.

ATTACK!


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 05:52 
I thought i banned him too, to be honest, lol.

Plenty of time to correct that. Figured i'd give you aviation folks a chance to kick him in the balls a few times first. ;)

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 09:04 
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Joined: 05 Dec 2002, 08:53
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Kurt occasionally makes some points I'd consider worthwhile, at least I think so. Some of his comments contradict themselves, or do they? His writing style is a little too much train of thought, with enough jargon to sound cool.

Anyway, I'll take a stab at some dialogue. It is frquently a good thing to have a product with a goofy appearance (A-10, F-117). It gives the marketing people something to talk about, i.e. "it has to look unusual to do what is required." You should be asking out competitor why his design looks so conventional". I am not a fan of the axiom "If it looks good, it will fly good". On the other hand, if it can't hover, the design is no good. The smartest marketing guy in the world can't sell that.

I still say Boeing did the X-32 hover tests at PAX because it gave them more thrust margin. Of course everyone is keeping track of the weight, and they know how it stacks up to the required operational weight, and they know it was deficient (the X-35 was probably deficient too, just not as bad). No matter. It was a prototype and they were getting good data to design a product that would work. If thet put ballast back in after taking the doors off, it was to move the c.g. back into controlable range. I'll bet there was still a net advantage in weight, and they did not need to be worrying about doors shaking off at a critical time.

As far as the CV version of the X-32 is concerned, I don't doubt that it could be landed on a ship. I just think they found out before the jet was built that its bring-back weight was too small and a new wing was needed to fix that (more area, more span, different high lift system, tails to trim the high lift) and that adversely affected the spot factor, mandating folding wings. Sorry Kurt, the design fell apart. If the X-32 was "faster" as is said in your post, the too small wing could be the reason.

As far as the internal structural arrangement is concerned, Kurt is really inarticulate about that, and wrong too. What is he talking about with "box frames", "edges" and "corners", huh? The X-32 wing was much simpler in concept and execution than the X-35, and the fuselage was also easier to arrange than the X-35, provided the wing is removed for engine swaps (like the Harrier). That is the best way to keep it light. That "sticks and canvas" comment about the X-35 is a little confusing. It sounds idiotic actually.

Kurt's configuration comparison of the X-32 & X-35 could have some valid points but who can tell? Overall, I think I have wasted my time trying to understand him. See ya later, Kurt.

THE RAMPTOR ENGINEERING TEAM <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Who cares if it works? Does it look good on the ramp?"

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 09:13 
And let that settle that then. :)

Banned.

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 10:28 
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Joined: 31 Mar 2004, 11:34
Posts: 139
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
And let that settle that then. :)

Banned.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Ah, the manure smell is clearing up nicely.

One shot, one troll, eh Snipe?

ATTACK!

By the way - haven't forgotten about bringing your godson out to see the jet. I'm never one to complain, but this medical issue is a real pain in the ass. I have to undergo another operation on 6 Dec., and possible one or two more after that. They're talking about having to send me back to the RTU to get requalified once I'm back on flying status because it's been forever since I've flown the Hog.

Such is life, just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about ya!

ATTACK!

Edited by - thunderstruck on Nov 30 2004 09:29 AM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 12:16 
I understand T-struck.

Whatever timetable works for you works for me brother. I hope you get well soon man.

"One shot, one troll, eh Snipe?"

Is there any other way? ;)

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 14:33 
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003, 08:32
Posts: 1097
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Kurt's configuration comparison of the X-32 & X-35 could have some valid points but who can tell? Overall, I think I have wasted my time trying to understand him. See ya later, Kurt.

THE RAMPTOR ENGINEERING TEAM <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Who cares if it works? Does it look good on the ramp?"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>I don't think I've ever seen Stress dismiss someone so completly as that....

You come into this world defenseless. That's why God gave us baseball bats. Well, he gave us trees. But we knew what he meant.

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