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Hey Stess,

If my memory serves me correct, you did some work at Republic when they where a major sub-contractor for the F-14 program. I am curious to your point of view on a few things.

I have read more than a few articles about the "corporate arrogance" Grumman Aerospace had with the DoD. This seems to stem back into the 60's. I read Captain "Butch" Voris's autobiography, and he speaks of it when he worked for Grumman in the late 1960's.

It seems to me, from a taxpayer’s point of view Grumman more or less, brought it upon themselves to lose their independence when Northrop bought them out in the early 90's. They drug their feet on utilizing the F-14 as a multi-mission aircraft, by persisting to continue emphasizing the A-6E and follow on variants, when it was very clear that the Intruder's days where limited.

I also read, that believing they had the only solution available to the Navy, when they took all out funding for the NATF program, they over priced their proposal for an next generation F-14 strike fighter variant. This irritated off then Sec of Defense Dick Cheney, who then turned to McAir, and the Super Hornet. Is this sort of arrogance prevalent within the defense industry? Allot of what I wrote is hearsay based on opions of writers and watchdog analysts that contribute to military aerospace literature that I read, but it blows my mind that corporations can be this near sighted, and even greedy...

Just curious what your take is, or anyone else that cares to comment.





Edited by - chadrewsky on Nov 01 2005 1:31 PM

Well Chad, I am not a Grumman cheerleader. They were our cross town rivals. We did not compete for the same programs directly, but there were bragging rights to consider. There is no doubt in my mind that the F-14 turned into a supremely useful weapon.

I can not say whether all those rumors about "arrogance" were true. I can say that they made good products that helped the Navy do their job. If being proud of their work and charging the government what it costs for giving them what they need is arrogance, then they were guilty. No wait...what I should say is what I really think. The government representatives are the ones who were arrogant. They (mostly) believed what they were told about the all singing, all dancing F-18 strikefighter and hated any dissent. When combined with the bad deal Grumman had to endure in the '70s, (double digit inflation killing them on a fixed price contract), all politicians and some Navy types needed to believe that there was a cheaper way.

Since Grumman said there wasn't a cheaper way, they were bad mouthed as arrogant. By now it has been established that Grumman knew what they were talking about. They knew how to design successful Naval aircraft. Their sin was they couldn't, or wouldn't, make them to the right price. When money for defense was plentiful, they did well. When it got tight, as in the late '80s, they took it on the chin. Just before the decline, around 1987, they had the A-6E, E-2C, C-2A, and F-14B (A+) in production, the A-6F, F-14D, EF-111 & EA-6B Advanced capability in development. They were getting good publicity with the X-29, the International Space Station management, and some classified Star Wars stuff. They had simultaneous consulting contracts with the Taiwanese (S-2T) and the ChiComs (F-8 avionics mods?). They were in a classified team working on the ATA with Northrop (GD won it with the A-12). Oh, and don't forget, they were doing the A-10 support at that time too. I guess the bigger they are, the harder they fall. By 1990 everything seemed to be gone (except the A-10 which is still there, kinda).

Don't get me started on Dick Cheney. Is there anyone more unqualified or arrogant to judge the worth of defense projects?

I am sure that the corporate memory of the F-14 financial problems influenced bidding on new jobs. Why shouldn't it? They did the best they could to sell the F-14 "Tomcat 21" or "Bombcat" or whatever it was called, but were unsuccessful. Drug their feet? No, they were desperate to sell it. The strikefighter mafia was still powerful and sold the F-18E instead. Maybe part of their strategy was to whisper in Navair's ear "Grumman is arrogant, believe us, the F-18 is the savior of Naval Aviation". By the time of the Northrop merger, Grumman was in no position to say they could synthesize another aircraft system. They were done.


It ain't the heat it's the humility.

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Thank you Stress...

That point of view was exactly what I was looking for.
I learned alot from what you just wrote.

I had the opportunity to see Gruman's arrogance up close at a meeting I attended. Gruman had just taken over the A-10 after FRC's demise and they were moderating this particular meeting, I was there to sell my five dollar safety mod to the ALE-40 (they bought it, I made HUGE dollars) so I was at the tail end of this one. The Gruman engineer was a young guy, kind of cocky but I didn't think a lot about it. Also in attendence was a very sharp Major from ACC (I think it was still TAC at the time) by the name of Vito Adragna. Most of us in the A-10 world knew you didn't mess with Vito (there's a joke there but I'll leave it alone) but Mr Engineer had yet to learn this. Gruman told the group what they were going to do, Major Adragna said "no, that's not the way it needs to be" and the engineer said "I don't think you have that authority" and pressed on. Now, at that point, most of us were thinking "WTF?" but the Major was a very cool guy. He just got up, left the room for 5-10 minutes, came back, sat down and said nothing. Shortly afterward, a secretary poked her head in, said to the Gruman guy "you've got a phone call". When the engineer returned to the meeting, Major Adragna looked up and said "that enough authority for you?". While the engineer may have been cocky, he wasn't stupid and said "yes sir, we'll re-visit that topic after lunch. Game, set and match to the Major.

OC

lol nice to see someone get cut down to size.

Since I don't know the people involved, nor their technical expertise, it is difficult to assess who the arrogant party is in that story. At any rate, the happenings at one low level meeting do not establish a trend. My point is that confidence is easily misinterpreted as arrogance. I guess I have been in the position of that "engineer" myself. What you are describing sounds like an application of the "Golden Rule", to whit: "Them with the gold makes the rules". It does no good to be right if the customer gets pissed off and goes somewhere else. On the other hand, I do enjoy the application of natural law too. I have often seen customers select a path that defies physics, and they are honestly surprised by the failure. The machine does not care whose name you drop, how high a position you hold, or how ambitious you are. It breaks or refuses to perform anyway. For example, maybe some A-10 family can remember the muzzle mounted gun gas deflector?

Did you work for Tracor Old Chief?

It ain't the heat it's the humility.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For example, maybe some A-10 family can remember the muzzle mounted gun gas deflector? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

LOL, oh jeez Stress, I recall several versions and not one of them worked worth a crap. I recall one version that was so heavy it affected the rotational pattern of the barrels causing the whole assembly to twist. On one of our deployments, we had a projectile exit thru part of the flat front plate. I'm betting there's a story behind this question, I'd love to hear it.

OC

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm betting there's a story behind this question, I'd love to hear it.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2401

It ain't the heat it's the humility.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Did you work for Tracor Old Chief?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

LOL, No stress, I was working against them. They had a different fix for the same problem but it was going to cost 3k/airframe plus spares. Mine was five bucks and done in the field.

Interesting thread on the Battelle piece of $hit. I'm sure there was a political reason for it, there were a lot of theories in the field (someone's brother in-law or something like that) but as far as I know, none of it was based on fact.

OC

Those things were ugly and worthless!,I wish we would of done the $5.00 thing Chief.
We really need something to deflect gas in GW1 water washes were getting to be almost daily,but you needed it.
If anything we would get buckets of water and hand wash the blades and throw the buckets of water in the intakes and motor them alittle.

Goose

LIVE FREE OR DIE

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I was there to sell my five dollar safety mod to the ALE-40 (they bought it, I made HUGE dollars) <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What safety mod are you referring to OC?

Fender
"A woman drove me to drink
and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
W.C. Fields

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What safety mod are you referring to OC?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

When the Chaff/Flare system was first installed it was possible to fire the system by running the APU pre-start check. Don't laugh, it happened to one unit. There was a sneak path thru the "press to test" on the warning lights. My little mod added 5 diodes and some stand-offs to the control box. I'll be the first to admit it was a cheesy fix but it met the first requirement of any mod to the hawg; it was CHEAP..I think the actual cost was $3.68..and it worked. All that went away with the installation of CMS. Now, before anyone goes off on Tracor's $3000 fix, keep in mind when the Air Force does a mod, there's no charge for labor or overhead and there's no profit margin to consider.

OC