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Aye, as does a bayonet...





"We shall leave no man behind"

"Aye, as does a bayonet..." Only if you've got the stones to use it!

"Insert trite message here"

Bayonets are ok for oppressing the Gallic swine, however for a more formidable oponent such as the germanic tutonic tribes or norsemen I prefer the big ass sword.

Spartacus hows the chariot running these days.............

The Sparrow was not a BVR AAM? I was under the impression it had a medium range envelope in excess of 15-25 nm miles............

I live for pooring hot tar on my oppressed French subjects!

Scortum Obscencus Vilis!

The Sparrow was and always will be a short range 12nm Dork slayer. In fact its almost to the point were sparrows are not being carried in inventory. Due to current threat and engagement zones. The only effective use of the sparrow is its Home on Jam. Trying to guide a semi active missile while being defensive is almost futile in nature.

The Amraam is a BVR medium range weapon.

The only true long range weapon has been the Phoenix.

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

Chariots? I could care less about them.....slow, inefficient and the "emissions" are far worse than the internal combustion engine can produce. BVR missles? Just another way of being impersonal and not doing it the manly way.....up close and IN YOUR FACE!!!!!!!

"Insert trite message here"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Your research skills are impressive, but how are you with the "big assed sword"?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I prefer the flying guillotine myself, not as messy,and not as much work. But when in Rome, <font size=5>HAVE AT YOU!!</font id=size5> <assumes standard chopsaki attack pose with big assed sword and kung fu action grip>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

MrMudd, what Sparrow versions are you refering to? F/M? Also I know witha SARH you have to keep the nose pointed towards the target, but to what extent? About how much angle off can you do and still guide/illuminate for the missle?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Maybe we are missing eachother Mudd, I was refering to the Sparrow II, I suppose. I am a little off on my nomenlature, but using a radar guided missile for short range ACM seems absurd (save the AMRAAM), even more so when considering that the Sidewinder is basiacly fire and forget, and does not put the aircraft at the tacticaly disadvantaged situation of having to illuminate the missile home.........Was the Sparrow II not designed as a BVR down the throat Mig Killer, optimized for head on, high closing speed engagements?

I live for pooring hot tar on my oppressed French subjects!

Scortum Obscencus Vilis!


Edited by - Beerimus Maximus Budweisermus on Mar 15 2003 10:36 PM

Simple answer... What good is a missile that has burned out the Solid Fuel? It cannot manuever nor can it Maintain altitude. Easily defeated if boris is paying attention. So my optimum use of the sparrow would be in the 15-8nm Engagement area against a manuevering Opponent. With the Amraam Utilised in the 25-15nm Wez.

The sparrows were Designed per say in engageing Bombers that were the main threat during the cold war. 35nm Max Engagement scenario. Being this has been a 60-70's Era discussion, I have been refereing to the 7E first gen Sparrow in an ACM Counterair enviroment. Not much has taken place in improvements. Where is our defense emphesis has been on better Fighter Technology, We are seriously lacking in Weapons technology.

If I am engaged with a fighter you can guarantee it is very difficult to maintain slant angle, Gimble Lock on a manuevering fighter if we are both head on 900knot closure to you this may sound trivial. but it is only a few seconds I have to deploy the sparrow, begin a defensive notch while maintaining a gimble lock on the target. This all takes time. Time and energy is everything in ACM.

If he of Course Fires on me while I am manuevering and maintaining Lock on him. It is my hope I destroy his aircraft before I attempt to defeat his Missile. This is a very Critical engagement envelope. If I inadvertantly manuever out of lock. Well that sparrow is a spoiler and its going to take time to manuever and re-engage, That is if I am not already defensive.

While we are turning, radiating and Shooting, other aircraft are manuevering to get the best aspect shot they can. The sparrow unfortunately is not the best system to have in these enviroments.

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

Totally matches what i have read about the sparrow Mudd.

The Israeli's hated them, and would always go with the Sidewinder if at all possible.

"We shall leave no man behind"

I read somewhere that there was almost 60 pnuematic and hydraulic funtions that had to take place in perfect sequence for the Sparrow to even clear the damn rail and shoot.......

What are the advantages to radar homing vs. IR seeker for obtaining and excecuting a firing solution/intercept with a AAM?

I live for pooring hot tar on my oppressed French subjects!

Scortum Obscencus Vilis!

[quote]
Simple answer... What good is a missile that has burned out the Solid Fuel? It cannot manuever nor can it Maintain altitude. Easily defeated if boris is paying attention. ------------

You made a statement earlier in a thread about Russian AAMs, having far longer legs and sensors. I agree with it and it bothers me we havne't done the same. It goes along with the old adage why bring a knife when a longer range weapon works betters. Which calls into play why not load up an AWACs with long range AAM to slam dunk any fighter.

You get to BVR, hit them way out there. If you go back to the WW2 stats, around 80% of the aircraft hit in aerial combat never knew what hit them.

US has had aerial superoity since the late stages in WW2 and not much later in the Korean War. In Nam we lost thousands of aircraft from various ground based threats.

Our real threats to our air forces are from the ground. No fly zones in Iraq have proved to be not a problem to aerial assets.

Time will tell in our invasion of Iraq.

Jack

the F-4E has generally owned the oppostion......

It has killed..........
MiG-25 (Iran v Iraq)
Mirage F-1EQ (Iran v Iraq)
MiG-23 (Iran v Iraq)
MiG-21 (Vietnam, Iran v Iraq, Arab v Isreali)
J-7 (Iran v Iraq)
F-104 (Greece v Turkey)
CF-5A (USA, accident)
MiG-19/J-6 (Vietnam, Iran v Iraq, Arab v Israeli)
MiG-17F (Vietnam, Arab v Israeli)
Su-20/22 (Arab v Israeli, Iran v Iraq)
Tu-22B (Iran v Iraq)
Tu-16/H-6 (Arab v Israeli, Iran v Iraq)
Il-28 (Arab v Israeli)
Su-7 (Arab v Israeli, Iran v Iraq)
Super Etendard (Iran v Iraq)
Jaguar (Britain accident)
Hunter (Iran v Iraq)
Su-25K (Iran v Iraq)

Plus helicopters (Mi-8, Gazelle, Mi-24, Mi-6, Huey)

I'll check on others it has shot down.


The upgraded F-4Es can still be highly effictive in the right area. Japan, Turkey, Israel, Greece, Germany, Korea and Iran have all done upgrades on thier F-4 fleets which make them still able to face the enemy.

Users
Germany; F-4F ICE (140)
Greece; F-4E/E-Icarus/RF (95)
Turkey; F-4E/E-2020/RF (180)
Spain; RF-4C (14)
South; Korea F-4D/E/RF (148)
Japan; F-4EJ-Kai/RF (110)
Iran; F-4D/E/RF (70-110)
Israel; F-4E/E-2000/RF (105)
Eygpt; F-4E (30)

Pretty good numbers seeing as only 3 nations have replaced their F-4s (UK, USA, Australia) and 1 of those only had them on lease pending the F-111 (Australia).

Air to Ground upgrades
Turkey; M-2032 radar, Popeye
Israel; APG-76 radar, Gabriel, Popeye

Air to Air upgrades
Germany; APG-65, AIM-120, IRIS-T

Multi Role Upgrades
Iran; APQ-120 upgrades, R-73, Kh-58
Greece; APG-65, AIM-120, IRIS-T, HARM
Japan; APG-66, AAM-4 (coming), AAM-3 (coming) ASM-2, IR Guided Bombs


The plane has been cleared for many weapons/systems

Radars
APG-65 (Germany/Greece)
APG-76 (Israel)
APG-66J (Japan)
M-2032 (Turkey)

Air To Air
AIM-120 (Germany, Greece)
AAM-4 (Japan)
Derby (Israel tested)
AIM-7M (all)
IRIS-T (Germnay, Greece)
Python 4 (Israel)
R-73 (Iran)
AAM-3 (Japan)
Python 3 (Israel, Turkey)
AIM-9L/M (all)

Air To Surface
Popeye (Turkey, Israel, South Korea)
Maverick (all)
HARM (Greece, Turkey, Israel, South Korea)
Shrike (Israel, Turkey, Greece)
Standard ARM (Israel)
Kh-58 (Iran)
Qadr (Iran)
Gabriel (Israel)
ASM-1/2 (Japan)
Laser Guided Bombs (any)
IR Guided Bombs (Japan)
C-802 (tested in Iran)

I'll check on any others......

And mind you the USA fired Kh-31As off of it in testing.



Edited by - troung on Mar 26 2003 9:53 PM