WT Forums

LOL...that wasn't my point. When the name of the whole place is "Warthog Territory" you shouldn't expect to get all that many compliments about the F-16<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. And to be honest, I'm impressed that they took what was originally designed as a day fighter and have turned it into a capable light attack plane (and a really cool way to turn jet fuel into LOTS of noise!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>).

Ted

Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dark2.gif" border=0>

Buzz lad........
You must learn to pay hommage to the thoroughbreds.....
This is a site for purebred military aircraft of pround bloodlines, not a place for jack of all trade master of none fighter mafia types to spew their rhteoric. Kind of like an exclusive country club, except here we prefer beer to congnac and if your caught wearing a tie, disrespecting a crew chief, or talking lawndarts more than oppropitate.........Bouncer Big Thug our security manager tosses you out to the alley;)

Oh btw........never, never, never disrespect the Tomcat.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 07 2003 10:05 AM

Excellent synopsis of the WT protocols Tcat.

What is the WT policy on the use of Porsche's as RV's?



Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I don't think you'll find to many people that will argue against the fact that the F-16/A-10 were the two of the biggeset air assets in the war<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

well I can think of one, after DS when they did the post war analysis on weapons and thier effectiveness an Air Force official said "The lightweight fighter(F-16) proved to be just that. It was the least effective aircraft of the war." There were reasons for that of course, the lack of armor and ability to take damage kept them VERY high when the avionics were for low level bombing. The "Boys from Syracuse" also found out the Falcon couldent shoot the center mounted GAU-13 without shaking itself to peices and stopped taking the pod on missions. The F-16s were even ordered to stop bombing by mid-day so the dust would clear in time for the night marauding talents of the Vark and Mudhen. I like the F-16 as a ATA visual fighter, and NOW has considerable AG capabilities, but during DS it was no great shakes for AG duty.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

"The F-16 was a major disappointment here"

General Chuck Horner, USCENTCOM AIROPS CINC, ODS.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Hey Sniper, what about General Horner's comment about the A-10s?

Ted

Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dark2.gif" border=0>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"The F-16 was a major disappointment here"

General Chuck Horner, USCENTCOM AIROPS CINC, ODS.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Very humourus since Gen. Horner Flew the 16 as his personal bird at 12th and is also a LOCKMART employee now with you guessed it "His own personal F16"

Now to call the F16 a failure during storm is a false fact.

All coalition aircraft were required to release ordnance at medium altitudes. No low level attacks permitted due to the terrain and Surface threats. The F16s precision Lantirn pods were given to the Mudhen units that had not recieved their pods.

The only aircraft authorised low level was the tornados for the specialised airfield denial munitions. and Helo's

When you degrade bomb from medium altitudes your probability of error increases. The differnce from a hit and miss or a kill or mobility kill is 50 Feet or so. Then you add in the winds aloft and which is differnt wind values at differnt altitudes and azimuths. This is not provocative to higher success rates. YOur bomb once it comes off the rack is left to the mercy of physics and nature. First you have to find the tgt, next sort it from junk and other collateral objects, and sometimes without aid of radar to reduce advertiseing your posit. for sam protection. So in essence we are asking F16, F18,A-6 and even the a10 to Drop ordnace at levels the B19, B25 etc was doing carpet bombing cities with 20 bombs in ww2.

F16s and A10s created the Infra red Mav hunt principle for night attack long before storm...

Now to say the F16 is a beer can waiting for disaster. you bet ya, Ive been there.. so is every single fighter out there in service. The A10 has been purpose designed to take a few good blows attack the Mob.

Just a little imput for a guy that was there..and flew Wesels for a longtime in Combat operations<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now even I am smart enough to not walk onto Hawg Heaven, and start spraying my sent..Im a guest. Not my community, but part of my family...Or I may not survive the egress <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"

"The F-16 was the workhorse of this war. It did the baseline bombing, the body punchin. It hauled the iron"

General Chuck Horner (USAF Retired)
remarks of the F-16 durring the Gulf War.

I am not anti F-16, its a great jet, and damn lethal. I just have a special place in my heart for thos rare breed of purpose built aircraft. Not a pound for air to ground........

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

I'LL QUOTE ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITE LINES FROM"UNCLE CHUCK"

"I'LL TAKE BACK ALL THE BAD THINGS I'VE EVER SAID ABOUT THE A-10.I LOVE THEM. THEY'RE SAVING OUR ASSES LT GEN CHUCK HONER AF COMMANDER
DESERT STORM


NOW ,BUZZ WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE F-16 HERE. ALOT OF US WERE TAKEN OFF A-10'S BECAUSE OF THE LAWNDART.BEFORE THE STORM THE USAF COULDNT WAIT TO GET RID OF THE HOG.THEY WE'RE EVEN THINKING ABOUT SENDING IT TO THE ARMY.
THEY EVEN DEBATED SENDING US TO THE GULF BUT YOU KNOW SOMETHING,WE WERE BEHIND THE F-15'S GOING THERE AND THE REASON WHY WAS TO DETERER IRAQ'S ARMOUR.
IT WASNT THE F-16,THE F-15 OR THE STEALTH IT WAS THE A-10!!!!!!!!

THE F-16 BOYS STAYED OUT SIDE SAUDI,IN THEIR COMFORTABLE SETTINGS,WHY THE A-10 COMMUNITY DELT WITH THE ELEMENTS IN OUR TENTS,(STILL BETTER THAN THE ARMY)
WE TURNED AND BURNED HOG'S FROM O'DARK THIRTY TILL LATE EVENING BUT JUST AS WE WERE PATCHING AND FIXING THE HOG'S THOSE DAMN F-16'S AND THEIR LITTLE BITTY FUEL TANKS CAME IN AND "WE THE A-10 COMMUNITY" HAD TO GAS THEM ON HOT PITS!!!!!!!
WE EVEN HAD TO GAS THEM AT THE FOL. AT KKMC

I'M NOT GOING TO DEBATE "THE F-16'S ROLE IN THE GULF"
BUT I KNOW ONE THING,AND ALOT OF US HERE WERE THERE IN PERSON UP CLOSE,
BUT WHEN TALKING TO IRAQI POWS THEY WERENT TALKING ABOUT "F-16'S" THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW SCARED THEY WERE OF THE "WARTHOG!!"

COMPARE A-10 SORTIES WITH F-16 SORTIES AND WE FLEW A HELL OF ALOT MORE
SEEN THE DAMAGE THE HOG DID,AND ABOVE ALL SAW HER COME BACK SO SHOT UP THAT THEY CANX'ED HER AND BURIED HER IN A SAND DUNE,BUT BROUGHT BACK HER PILOT.SOME EVEN SO SHOT UP THAT THEY LOOKED BEYOND REPAIR WERE PUT BACK TOGETHER AND FLYING IN LESS THEN 7 DAYS THANKS TO THE ABDR BOYS

THEN THEIR IS SOME HERE THAT EVEN LOST THEIR PLANE,SOME EVEN KNEW PILOTS WHO WERE LOST OR WAITED FOR WORD OF A MISSING PILOT.
HOPE YOU NEVER HAVE TOO.

SO YEP YOU CAN HAVE YOUR OPINION ON THE F-16,BUT NOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WE DONT LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND THAT SIR YOU HAVE TO RESPECT!

GOOSE

PRESS TO TEST

Edited by - sgtgoose1 on Feb 07 2003 2:58 PM

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Didn't General Horner's son fly the A-10?

What I like about the A-10 is it is an absolutely no compromise air support platform. The damn thing is built around the GAU-8. I remember the first time I watched one live fire......All your heard was Waaaaaamp............Waaaaaaaamp....................Waaaamp.

The second coolest military aircraft display I have ever seen.



If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"The F-16 was a major disappointment here"

General Chuck Horner, USCENTCOM AIROPS CINC, ODS.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> "The F-16 was the workhorse of this war. It did the baseline bombing, the body punchin. It hauled the iron"

General Chuck Horner (USAF Retired)
remarks of the F-16 durring the Gulf War.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

um..this seems like a contradiction to me.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

All you have to do is tell Buzz the real reason the Air Force purchased the F16...and that was to vacuum the flight line, and pick up all the FOD...Its ok Buzz, I loved the F16 when I was young (like 12 or 13) cause it looked cool, but you see, when you work on an Aircraft like the A10, the most "beautiful" <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> bird in the fleet...well you realize things...especially the first time an A10 takes a bird strike in the engine, and returns safe...You have base safety standing in awe, because before the A10s arrived at moody, a bird strike meant loosing an aircraft...poor lawn darts...I mean vacuums...damn, so confusing....I mean F16s.....anyways....

Oh, and don’t get on Tomcats bad side…I’ve been there…it isn’t very pretty!!!! (or goose either for that matter, although to my knowledge I haven't made him upset...)

Brought to you by your friendly neighborhood moderator...

If you can't go fast...go Ugly

_________________

Naw prkii.........you were just being a good moderator. I was out of line and in one of my "being a daft arse" modes. I guess Miss PP's proper english is rubbing off on me Anyways, water under the bridge........But I agree about Goose, he can be one tenacious crew chief if you get him riled up. Glad he is on our side.

In regards to General Horner's quote regarding the F-16 in the Gulf War.

I got that quote out of a book I own.
"Fighter Wing" A guided Tour of an Air Force Combat Wing
By Tom Clancy. Its a dated book that was printed in 1995.

Very informative book, and excellent attention to detail as are all of Clancy's work. A very good read for anyone who has any interest in military aircraft. Pretty much all of us here.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

OH COME ON I AINT THAT BAD?
WELL ONLY WHEN IT COMES TO
"LAWNDARTS,NON-23TFW OR FW A-10'S WITH TEETH AND A-10'S PAINTED GREY,
EXCEPT THE FIRST ONES,EVERY PLANE HAS TO HAVE ITS BUGS WORKED OUT."

THEN I TEND TO GET A LITTLE UPSET,NOT MUCH JUST A LITTLE.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

PRKIII,YOU NEVER BEEN ON MY BADSIDE.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

The F-16 may have been the 'workhorse' of the war, but it also suffered the most by the medium altitude attacks it was confined too.

No one ever said it was a failure, just that it did not perform to the level hoped. That was what Warner meant.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

The single biggest factor was the lack LATIRN targeting pods, only 72 of the 249 F-16's in theatre had LATIRN, and those ones had the dated AAQ-13 navigation pod, and not the AAQ-14 targeting pod.

The bomb delivery software, training, and doctrine designed for the F-16 was low level precesion bomb delivery, not medium altitudes where the F-16 was confined to. It was a total mismatch, the wrong tactics where used in a situation where the F-16 was not yet optomized. I understand that software updates, and added mission criterias have erassed these shortcommings. The aircraft still held its own, being out of its element delivering over 20,000 tons of ordanace on 13,500 combat sorties.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Yup, my point(And Horner's) exactly.

Today's Block 50/52 is obviously a lot better suited to the medium altitude bombing role.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

HEY GUYS,
WHERE'S BUZZ?


PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Opppssssss. I forgot to tell him it was ok to come of the corner.
Buzz you may join us now, just mind your p's and q's.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

I think he got lost in the Cessna

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

But...at LEAST he's a PILOT!

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
But...at LEAST he's a PILOT!

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Maybe he switched to sniper forums

LOL.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 10 2003 01:59 AM

Mr. Mudd

I owe you one my friend (passes chartruse)... thanks for the moderation.... the determining factor here? Mudd ACTUALLY READ CHUCK HORNER'S BOOK, as did I.

Boomer, good observations man, thanks for the support --I would agree with your comments with regard to the limiting technology it had at the time. The F-16s that were deployed were either F-16A block 15s or F-16C block 25 aircraft... at the time the block 25s had little to no precision strike capability... so they teamed the -16s with the A-10s (hence the whole IR/maverick concept relayed by Mudd) ... but yeah, they were CAS aircraft... they pretty much stuck to cluster munitions and unguided Mk82s/84s etc. etc.

The F-16 is a very flexible fighter... with a new modular mission computer upgrade on the charts and (as mentioned by boomer a while back) -- the SniperXR ir/nav + GPS guided munitions such as the JDAM and JASSM... the Viper will be an asset to our armed forces for quite some time.

As far as "where" I went.. college classes are keeping me busy<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> (that and extensive playage of Falcon 4.0 and Jane's F-15<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)... cheers.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by - buzz2182 on Feb 10 2003 11:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Mr. Mudd

I owe you one my friend (passes chartruse)... thanks for the moderation.... the determining factor here? Mudd ACTUALLY READ CHUCK HORNER'S BOOK, as did I.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I never read UPCHUCKs Book. I know him personally. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I also know the realities of what took place in Desert Shield/storm and Kurdish relief. I was their for 14 Bloddy Months <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

I wish we could retool and build new A10s as well as its sleeping brothers down at DM. We dont have enough of them.

If North Korea Rolls across the DMZ.... We are in for a serious hurt.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"