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The F-4 receieved a real bad rap in Vietnam cause ROE tactics pitted the Rhino's weakness against the North Vietnamiese only strength (Mig-17/19/21's in a gunfight or ACM engagement) however, with that thinking aside, and the sheep in wolf's clothing that the Mig-25 turned out to be............Was the F-4 a sound JSF concept? I believe so, and could the F-4 with the benifite of better engine technology, avionics, cockpit ergronomics, and a fire and forget BVR have survived as a front line fighter untill the 90's?

As much as I love the F-14/15/16............Did we really need all three. Could an improved F-4 had soldiered on untill the F-22?

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Just food for thought, but research the Israeli F-4 "Kurnass" upgrade proposals, I was impressed.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

As long as the dogfights were acceptable at a Turning radius comfortable to most C130 Crews...LMAO

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

Myself, i would say the F-4U Corsair was the first JSF..but that's just me.

"We shall leave no man behind"

Gotta think tri-service...Don't know too many USAAF or USAF F4Us...

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

RAF(or was it RN?) F-4's DID serve though, along with USN and USMC models.

That'd be three services.

"We shall leave no man behind"

Yeah, I know, it was the Brits that figured out that, yes, with the right technique, you CAN land a Corsair on a carrier without too much difficulty, along with Hellcats and Martlets (RN Wildcats). So, if we're including the Brits, does that make the JSF the Quad-service fighter? lol

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Was the F-4 really that poor of a dogfighter? I mean with the correct tactics the U.S. Navy and the Israelies got the job done. I am not saying that the F-4 was a F-16, but...........The F-4 for its vintage was very multi mission.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

The F4 was not a geometry fighter in comparison to the Migs that it fought. What it did have in Advantage was The higher Thrust. Therefore the Phantom could power its way out of the Engagement. Their were tactics and ways that you could fight with the F4. It will not work in todays world if left into a defensive or offensive knife fight.

The F4 was aquantum leap of Fighter design in the 60's,It was paired up with Faulty and inaccurate Semiactive and Heat Missiles/ Sidewinder, Falcon, Sparrow First Gen Missiles. The radar was very simple. It reported a return signature, with no labeled range, Altitude, speed, or azimuth. YOu were required to Have many eyes discerning contact visually as well as being guided by a GCI or ACI controller.

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

Don't forget that wonderful exhaust trail pointing the way for MiG's and AA!<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Peace through Superior Firepower

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

Actually Migs try to rejoin on Smoke..lol thats the Eastern version of, Where is the rest of my kin?

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

I heard the F-4s would break motor mounts at 5 or 6 Gs but dont know if that was chronic or just for some of the fleet.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Oh yeah, Throttle Slams and transients, the transition between AB and Full Mil power was Delayed, But when it Kicked in...Boom!

Has nothing to do with G's.,

The trick was Gradual acceleration, Most Mounts are busted on takeoff, when not allowing the aircraft to begin rolling gradually, especialy when heavily loaded. It happens to many other fighters as well.

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

After they added the good ol' 20 mike mike to the F-4 it was good to go.... although it was less maneuverable than its counterparts it was a war dog and could take a beating... I have alot of respect for Weasel Pilots... mainly F-4s, F-105s, and F-100s. cheers.

I agree about the JSF... once the Navy has it the fleet will be as diverse as it needs to be. Although the -18/EF isn't a thoroughbread like the SuperTomcat, or the F-15, it is still an outstanding aircraft with some great avionics.

"TACAIR, we deliver, you eat dust"

Edited by - buzz2182 on Mar 10 2003 2:10 PM

So, what about all of that SPECTACULAR footage of F-4s disintegrating just before reaching max thrust?

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

[quote]
Myself, i would say the F-4U Corsair was the first JSF..but that's just me.

----------

Good case could be made for the A-1. All services flew them except for the Army. The Navy made a carrier fighter out of the F-86, forget the actual designation now.

A-7s flew with the Navy and the Air Force. A-3s were modded by the Force in the B-66.

If you add choppers into the mix. O man, Hueys, Snakes, Blackhawks, and 53s.

Jack

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I have alot of respect for Weasel Pilots... mainly F-4s, F-105s, and F-100s. cheers.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Buzzzzz....

.....Heres a cracker, Now STFU!!!

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

So Buzz....what exactly makes a good Wild Weasel pilot? Would he be readily observable from say a mediocre wild weasel pilot?

"face it....perhaps your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others!"

LOL.

"We shall leave no man behind"

Poor Buzzz..........
Kid will just not learn, we have a saying here on WT be humble, or be humbled.....

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

If I remember correctly the F-4's radar was based on the surveyor space probe hardware. What a drastic change, from the beneign vacum enviornment of space, to the slamming down on a CV deck through corrosive salt spray and the monsoons of the Gulf of Tonkin.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Actually the Wild Weasel Crews Radar was so Effective they were Frying Russian Crystal sets along the east German Border.. Pretty Humerous.

The old raytube Radar systems could not Cope with Doppler Shift or Over amping the return Signal. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

"<---Jesus Powers My Hotrod---<<<"

"My purpose in life does not include a hankering to charm society."

M&M... lol I'd give you a straight answer and all that jazz but you obviously already know what makes a wild weasel... A little wildness if you will... for purposes of anti-hazing to jr. wanna-be fighter pukes I'll leave it at that.

Thug, you're fuckin' hilarious man... go on comedy central or somethin'.

Chadrewskey... am I missing something... are you a veteran fighter pilot or something... thug and mudd are... go figure.



Edited by - buzz2182 on Mar 11 2003 01:27 AM

nope, not a pilot.....Unless those balsa wood rubber band jobs count. I am just a pawn in the game of life, with an interest in naval aviation.

I should know, I am not a pilot

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

You kids just make sure you don't break nothing with all this roughhousing

"We shall leave no man behind"