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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2003, 00:53 
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Troung.........

You started an interesting subject, and I am wanting to know the sources of your literature regarding the F-14 in Iranian service, I have several sources regarding the pre-revoultionary Imperial Iranian Air Force F-14 program, including some interesting intercepts involving Red Air Force Mig-25's and Badgers..........
Before the Shah was deposed he built an impressive infrastruture at Khatami and other F-14 bases, in fact at the time they were first rate.

The Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force, and the Iran/Iraq war is a different story. What I am really interested in are your sources for F-14 kills (I have several of those as well) and any literature you may have on the Iranian/Russian F-14 update program. I have read a few articles about atempts to upgrade the engines with Russian engine technology (eg) Saturns..........Revamped fire control system able to accomadate Russian AAM's, and upgraded air to ground capability. The Iranian F-14's have realitvely low airframe hours, no carrier traps, or cat launches, no corrosive salt water damage, thus are in prestine condition for their vintage block numbers............And able to soldier on for another 10 years with improvements.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 12 2003 11:57 PM

Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 12 2003 11:57 PM


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2003, 03:14 
Well Tomcat, how about some quotes given to me TODAY about the F-14 in IAF service during the Iran Iraq war by a gentleman who co-wrote a book on it...

From Tom Cooper, co-author of Iran-Iraq War in the Air 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/a ... 16699.html

This is from a Mig-31 vs F-14 debate...

"IMHO, some of the most important aspects of the "F-14 vs MiG-31" comparission were not mentioned at all here so far.

The MiG-31 was namely developed as that what is usually said for the F-14: a "bomber-interceptor".

The plane can fly fast over vast distances, but is not as fast as the MiG-25, which can "super-cruise" at Mach 2.1 thru 2.3. It has an indeed powerfull radar (from the power-output), which was also the first AESA put into service, but is particularly primitive from the side of its processing capabilities. In fact, so primitive, that it can track a maximum of 10 targets simultaneously, with a theoretically capability of engaging four of them each with a single R-33 (this was never tried-out, not even in a test: a max number of simultaneously engaged targets during the testing was 2).

The Zaslon weapons system, however, is heavily optimized for tackling non-maneuvering targets, such like B-1 or B-52 bombers, or AGM-86 ALCM/CALCM (air-launched cruise missiles). During the testing it proved capable of engaging bomber-sized targets from ranges of only between 60 and 90km. Cruise-missile sized targets and such targets like B-1Bs (which has an RCS of hardly more than a US-produced cruise missile from the 1980s), could be engaged from much shorter ranges, i.e. between 25 and 30kms.

For comparission, the AWG-9 - originally developed in 1962 - has a capability to simultaneously track up to 24 targets, and simultaneously engage six of these by firing a single AIM-54A at each of them. This capability was confirmed by several tests, the first of which was undertaken in November 1973, and the last in October 1998 (during each such test a single F-14 attacked six targets with six AIM-54s, and usually downed at least four or five of these). The AWG-9/AIM-54 system proved capable of engaging bomber-sized targets - despite jamming - from ranges of over 200km (the record, scored during the testing in Iran, in the summer of 1978, was over 240km), and fighter-sized targets (RCS of 3sqm) at ranges over 120km. Engagement ranges for cruise-missile targets are nominally around 60km.

The difference is, however, that the MiG-31 was never tested in combat. The F-14 was - and throughoutly. And not only the F-14: the AIM-54 as well. And, the F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54 combo proved the best and most deadly air-to-air and air-defense system ever used in combat, with a confirmed pk of over 70%.

If pitted against each other in air-to-air combat, the MiG-31/Zaslon system have - despite their power - a significant disadvantage: the R-33, namely, is a purerly semi-active radar-homming (SARH) air-to-air missile (AAM). That means, for successfully striking the target, the radar of the launching MiG-31 must always be pointed at the target. If the radar loses the lock on (due to jamming or target maneuvering, or the maneuvering of the MiG-31 which launched the R-33), the missile will 100% miss, as it has no means of guiding itself to the target.

The AIM-54, on the contrary, is an active-radar homming missile. That means, that in the last phase of the flight it activates its own pulse-doppler radar, which detects the target and then guides the missile until the collision. That means, that sometimes after the launch (depending on the distance to the target), the F-14 is free to maneuver and let the missile do the job.

Besides, contrary to the MiG-31, which was always built as bomber-interceptor and never meaned to be very maneuvreable, the F-14 was initially constructed as an air-superiority fighter, based on experiences from maneuvering combats over North Vietnam, and with main weaponry consisting of a 20mm gun, Sidewinders and Sparrows. It was built to be able to outmaneuver such planes like MiG-17 and MiG-21 - and is perfectly capable of doing so. Only once such a design was finalized was the capability to carry the AIM-54s added (that's what the F-14 needs "pallets" to carry AIM-54s). Consequently is the F-14 far more maneuvreable than any MiG-31 and could easily win in a dogfight.

This is again confirmed with combat experiences: the MiG-31 lacks any, while the F-14s have probably up to 120 kills to their credit.

Finally, somebody mentioned the MiG-31BM as a "super air-to-ground fighter". Only two prototypes of this version were ever built, one of which was never completed, while the other was mothballed soon after doing some testing. Out of a fleet of some 300 MIG-31 produced, currently only some 20 are operational on average: the plane is a true "gas-guzzler" and extremly expensive to operate. In service, the Zaslon system proved complex to maintain, and all its secrets were delivered to the Americans by a Soviet spy already in the early 1980s (that was the reason why the Soviets then tried to develop the MiG-31M, and the R-37 ARH AAMs, but in the end couldn't complete that task for the lack of money).

For comparission, a total of some 70 F-14Ds are in active fleet service since 1992, and have a weapons system - the APG-71 - which includes the best modules of the APG-70 and the AWG-9. It is meanwhile compatible with a wide range of PGMs, foremost the superb GBU-24 laser-guided bomb, which can be dropped against targets up to 20km away (albeit, only if the target is designated by somebody who is closer to the target than 10-12km), as well as the JDAM. All the USN's F-14 now also carry LANTRIN navigational and targeting pods - the MiG-31BM would never get anything comparable - and a number of USN's F-14s is also TARPS-capable, i.e. they can do reconnaissance. Furthermore, the F-14A/Bs (only US examples) - which are in some cases even better equipped for air-to-ground operations than even the F-14Ds - are equipped with Television Camera Set (TCS), which enables their crews to detect and track targets from ranges up to 60km without activating their radars (and thus warning the opponents of their presence), while the F-14Ds have a combined infra-red-search-and-track (IRST) and TCS dual set mounted under the chin. Again, the MiG-31BM never got a chance of getting a similar equipment.

PS Oh, and before I forget: during the I Persian Gulf War (Iraq-Iran War, 1980-1988), the Iranian F-14s have shot down at least six or seven Iraqi and Soviet MiG-25s of different variants. As these were flying faster (usually at more than Mach 2.2) and higher (usually at more than 60.000ft) than the MiG-31 can, and have never managed to fire even a single missile at any of Iranian F-14s (although the R-40RD/AA-6 should have a range of up to 90km), I'm sure the conclusion is, that the F-14 Tomcat could very much "reach out and touch" the MiG-31."

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2003, 14:39 
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Well they did not allow the Russians to touch their American built planes. But they have done a lot of tests and upgrades to their fleet.

F-14A (~50-60); still has the American radars, fire control and engines but now can carry the R-73 (AA-11). The range on the AWG-9 has been improved. It is used for air superiority. In IRIAF service it has shot down many types of air borne stuff, bombers (H-6D, Tu-22B), fighters (MiG-25PD, Mirage F-1EQ, Mig-23MF/ML, MiG-21MF) strike air craft (Su-22, MiG-25RB) and missiles (Exocet, C-601). The Iraq pilots feared the F-14 and would generally flee, but they did score some kills (the Mirage F-1EQ-6 shot 1-2 down, and the MiG-21 actually got a possible kill). Iran is working on reverse building the AIM-54A.

Weapons
1*20mm Vulcan
AIM-54A
AIM-7E
R-73
AIM-9P

MiG-29A/UB (28-36); fitted with in flight refueling and larger drop tanks, carry the R-27R/T (AA-10A/B) and the R-73 (AA-11). Used as air defense fighters.

Weapons
1*30mm
R-27R/T
R-73
R-60MK

F-4D/E/RF (~80-110); the radar ranges were increased, the C-802 missiles were tested on them, and they can fire the Kh-58 (AS-11) and R-73 (AA-11) and Iranian built PGMs (Qadr) now. They are used as multi role fighter. During the war they were used for air defense, strike, anti shipping (LGBs, Mavericks, dumb bombs), recce (RF-4E) and close air support. They have shot down all types of planes bombers (H-6, Tu-22, Tu-16), fighters (MiG-25PD, Mirage F-1EQ, MiG-23MF/ML, MiG-21MF), strike aircraft (Su-22, SuE) and close air support planes (MiG-23BN, Su-25 (?), J-6, Hunter FGA)


Weapons
1*20mm Vulcan (F-4E)
1*20mm Vulcan gun pod (F-4D)
AIM-7E (improved)
R-73
AIM-9P (improved)
Maverick
C-802 (tested)
Laser Guided Bombs

F-5E/F (~80-100); the radars have been improved and it can now use the PL-7 (Chinese built Magic I or II), R-60MK (AA-8 with HMS) and possibly the Magic II. The have reverse built the F-5E/F family and are now building copies (Azarakhsh) which can carry LGBs. They are used as fighter bombers. They were heavily used during the war as fighters and for close air support. They have shot down several types (MiG-23MF/ML/BN, MiG-21MF, Mirage F-1EQ, Su-22, Hunter).

Weapons
2*20mm
R-60MK
AIM-9P
PL-7
PL-5
Laser Guided Bombs (Azarakhsh)

Mirage F-1EQ-2/4/5/6 (23); 24 defected during the Gulf War. Fitted with the Super 530F/D, Magic I/II, As-30L, Kh-29L (AS-14), ARMAT and the Mirage F-1EQ-5 can fire the Exocet. Used as fighter bombers. 1 lost to Taliban ground fire pre 9-11.

Weapons
2*30mm DEFA
Super 530F/D
Magic I/II
PL-7 (possible)
As-30L
Kh-29L
ARMAT
Exocet (EQ-5)
Laser Guided Bombs

Su-24MK (36); 24 fled from the USA during the Gulf War and 12 were bought from Russia. The plane is used for strike and can be fitted with buddy tanking or use the KC-707 or KC-747. Has been fitted with the C-802 AshM and American built bombs/LGBs. Used for strike and anti shipping missiles.

Weapons
1*23mm
R-60MK
C-802
C-801
Kh-58
Kh-29L/T
Kh-25L/P
Laser Guided Bombs

The J-7M and J-6 are out of service and hte Su-22, MiG-23 and Su-25 never came into service (the ones that defected). The Adnan AWACS (2)are in service.

They have improved the AIM-9P (around AIM-9L) and AIM-7E-4 (probably around AIM-7F/M) to make them more modern so those are not the same missiles from the 1980s. The also built PGMs and LGBs of their own.

Got any questions, ask away.





You should go to www.ACIG.org to find out much more.

PS Tom Cooper owns ACIG




Edited by - troung on Feb 13 2003 1:41 PM


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2003, 14:50 
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Outstanding gentleman.........
When I get more time I got some other questions, I will be in touch. Thanks guys!

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2003, 02:37 
Anytime Tomcat ;)

I knew you'd like Troung :)

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2003, 06:47 
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Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
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Your quite welcome.

A lil extra....

All the stories about the IRIAF going for the J-8, JH-7, MiG-27, Su-27SK, MiG-31 and Tu-22M were false.



Edited by - troung on Feb 14 2003 05:48 AM


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2003, 09:27 
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Got on touch with Tom Cooper.......I have a project I have putting together for the last 5 years regarding the F-14 in Iranian service...........He has alot of the stuff I have been needing to complete it. So much for the naysayers regarding the AIM-54's combat effectiveness.........It has proven its lethality in the truest test. Just call it Slammer Sr............Iranians even rip fired multiple missiles for a multiple kill sequence........ Wamp Wamp!. Very cool stuff. Also like the F-14 gun kills.......

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2003, 11:47 
Yep, but ignorance is bliss for the naysayers.

Glad i could hook you two up.

Make sure i'm invited to the wedding ;)

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2003, 15:47 
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[quote]
This capability was confirmed by several tests, the first of which was undertaken in November 1973, and the last in October 1998 (during each such test a single F-14 attacked six targets with six AIM-54s, and usually downed at least four or five of these--------

I knew the pilot of the Tomcat in the 73 test. What they don't report is they needed 18 AIM-54s, these were golden BBs from the factory to pick out the 6 good ones. AIM-54s always had quality control problems at the factory and were very pricey. Always a big problem with tail hookers is the damage done by traps, cat shots, and the ocean environment to missiles.

Tomcats parked on static displays or in musuems. Parts are disappearing and appearing in Iran now. One of our big problems is selling front line equipment to friendly countries now, and becoming unfriendly later.

Argentina was running many A-4s in the Falklands Conflict. Am sure the UK was thrilled about that.

Jack


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2003, 16:37 
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guys, I need some clarification here....
I saw a documentary that said that the F-14s were "disabled" by departing U.S. mechanics or some other asset.... is that credible?

"TACAIR, we deliver, you eat dust"

Edited by - buzz2182 on Mar 10 2003 3:40 PM


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2003, 20:18 
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[quote]
guys, I need some clarification here....
I saw a documentary that said that the F-14s were "disabled" by departing U.S. mechanics or some other asset.... is that credible?

----------------

They were, but then they were fixed. They might had pulled a black box or two. High value assets were fairly well guarded.

Jack


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2003, 02:29 
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Thanks Jack, appreciate it.

"TACAIR, we deliver, you eat dust"


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2003, 09:25 
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[quote]
Thanks Jack, appreciate it.

--------------

Rumors were SEAL teams or tech reps pulled some boards off the Tomcats.

Another buddy of mine had instructed the Iranian Air Force in Tomcats. Old Vince was ready to take out all of the Tomcats with a few A-6 strikes. He knew Iran well.

Jack


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2003, 14:03 
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Jack,

My e-mail addy is chadrewskie@hotmail.com (primary)
If you care to have a dialog on your US Navy experience, it would be all ears.

Regards,

Chad

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2003, 17:42 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>take out all of the Tomcats with a few A-6 strikes <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

THAT would have been a SUPERIOR idea, I'm sure the Soviets got at leaste one of the Toms to look over and take apart(probly in exchange for those "fixxes")

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2003, 22:38 
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"I saw a documentary that said that the F-14s were "disabled" by departing U.S. mechanics or some other asset.... is that credible?"

Never happened. Infact the opposite was true, the uSA sold them spares even before Iran Contra. The IRIAFs F-14s were operational with the AIM-54A, ask the Iraqis.....

"THAT would have been a SUPERIOR idea, I'm sure the Soviets got at leaste one of the Toms to look over and take apart(probly in exchange for those "fixxes")"

They did not let the Russians take them apart. The Iranians were more than able to keep thier own fighters flying. Add that to the fact they don't like Russian or Chinese fighters.


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2003, 19:24 
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Joined: 10 Mar 2003, 14:49
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[quote]
"I saw a documentary that said that the F-14s were "disabled" by departing U.S. mechanics or some other asset.... is that credible?"

Never happened. Infact the opposite was true, the uSA sold them spares even before Iran Contra. The IRIAFs F-14s were operational with the AIM-54A, ask the Iraqis.....

-------------

I think we could debate the disabled part in 79. No doubt they ended up flying them fairly quickly.

Interesting part as the Navy parks F-14s at the boneyard or static display. Parts go missing. Couple of years ago near Pt. Mugu. I saw some parked Tomcats sitting out damn near in the open. They had some damage. Only to the mainmounts. But otherwise a big parts queen.

Jack


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2003, 18:48 
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You are probably in love with the A-6 but I have some surprisng news. An A-6 wouldn't dare challenge or try to take out an F-14. Only the A-10 Thunderbolt with it's Maverick missiles, nose gun, and it's other ground attack ordanance!<font size=5></font id=size5><font face='Arial Black'></font id='Arial Black'><img src="" border=0><img src="" border=0>


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2003, 20:45 
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ROFL alert alert FNG in the house !!!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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