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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2003, 16:33 
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probly too early, but I was reading that the Army and Marines seem to think the manned attack helo is dead!!

Obviously IFF has GOT to get better.

and I suspect there will be a MAJOR push for MUCH faster Cruise missles. Fasthawk and others are underway but I think we'll see more projects with more funding.

Space based imaging RADAR would be a welcome workload reducer for JSTARS and the UAVs

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2003, 18:22 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>probly too early, but I was reading that the Army and Marines seem to think the manned attack helo is dead!!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Where'd you here that?
I'd like to read the article that stated this.

I personally think the Cobra was better employed than the Apache.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2003, 20:19 
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Av-Week , I'll try and find it

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2003, 21:14 
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I got the actors wrong, but not the concept LOL. From Av-Week:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>HISTORIC AIRCRAFT Looking at Israel's fighting in the West Bank cities and the latest U.S. experience in Iraq, both U.S. and Israeli officials contend that the day of the manned, attack helicopter is over. The Israelis predict Iraq will see the last extensive use of attack helicopters in a major conflict. Post-war analyses will doom further attack helicopter development, they say. Pentagon officials agree to the extent that attack helicopters will not be used as an independent maneuver force unsupported by fixed-wing aircraft and artillery. Every Apache in an Army battalion of 32 helicopters used in this way returned with battle damage. The Marines, by comparison, have adopted new tactics and use their attack helicopters only in combined arms operations. The replacement for the vulnerable aircraft, contend many of the senior officers, will be cheaper, armed unmanned aircraft. However, some Air Force officials object to that conclusion. They contend there was too much fratricide and killing of civilians by unmanned aircraft, if you include the use of cruise missiles, and that a postwar analysis will buttress the case for more manned fixed-wing attack aircraft with large ordnance payloads.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I dont know that I agree with it or not, but there it is.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2003, 23:29 
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It is time to start Monday morning quarterbacking! But first let me praise our troops they show the world what the US can do when we need too.

Now on to Monday morning quarterbacking I feel the first point is to recognize that we may fewer mistakes than our enemy did. Once you take out the blue on blue, the wrong turn in the desert, and the maintenance problems you cut our losses by a lot. Plus we must have done something right on the first night of bombing because after than their communications seem to have fallen apart for the most part for whatever reason.

I guess I should first point out some of what I think were the good points. While we were told that a cell phone could pick up a B-2 approaching a target, which I have never understand how that would work and that the JDAM’s could and would be jammed. Maybe we should have thanked the Russians because the Iraqi could have bought Japanese and they would have worked. When I saw the TV pictures of the first bombing of Baghdad were around a dozen bombs fell in a line I know that a B-2 was not far away. The first anyone knew that one was there was when the bombs hit the ground and then no one knew were to fire because it was gone. The B-2 and the F-117 can go anywhere they want for now and maybe for a while in the future.

Then I have already seen this article http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/ ... tank01.htm in Global Security http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html which helps me feel that the Abram maybe with us a little longer then other thought which I am glad. Anyway I feel that some people do not keep the big picture in mind and that is we use a combined arms engagement not just one system. And when one system is use like just sending the Apaches in to a fight without close air or some other combined arm system you can see the results.

Now while the Abram and the JDAM were shiny heroes in Iraqi Freedom as best I could tell from my limited viewing on FOXs. Despite the fact that I know that must not be totally true because we could not see on TV what the Special Forces, close air, and other systems were doing.

Oh we are going to have a great time with Monday morning quarterbacking!



Battle tank still rolling
By Lance Gay

Although Pentagon strategists last year forecasted the era of the M-1 main battle tank was coming to an end, the war in Iraq demonstrated the ponderous tank is still king of the battlefield.
Yes, the analysts acknowledge, the battle tank, called the Abrams, is overweight at 60 tons and a headache to move around the world to global hotspots. It's also a gas-guzzling pig powered by turbine engines that consume five gallons to the mile, requiring the support of a chain of gas tankers. Running it through the talc-like soils of a Middle East desert also makes the M-1 a maintenance chore because the tank columns have to stop so filters can be changed every three to five hours.
But the Iraq war demonstrated whatever its flaws, there's nothing to match the behemoth on the battlefield.
The Army even showed off its new "Thunder Run" tactics, which rely on the psychological effect the Abrams has on the enemy. U.S. forces drove the tanks through downtown Baghdad as proof U.S. forces dominated the landscape. The tactic was developed after Somalia to show the ability of the force to go into troublesome areas at will.
"The Abrams is still the king of the army," said Patrick Garrett, associate analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a Washington think tank.
Garrett said one of the main lessons the generals learned from Iraq is the Army still needs a heavy-armored force to effectively fight a war with a well equipped enemy.
The Pentagon won't talk about American losses until the military completes its post-war analysis, but reports from the battlefield show three M-1s lost to enemy fire in the Iraqi war. Reports from embedded reporters said the enemy was using hand-held rockets to kill the tanks, and some analysts blamed the losses on Russian-made Kornet anti-tank weapons pointed at vulnerable rear parts of the Abrams.
Garrett said what surprised him was how little the ground war changed between the 1991 Persian Gulf War and this time around.
Although the size of the U.S. force used in Iraq was smaller, he said it took as much time to bring the equipment to the region by ship and position the forces in preparation for the fight. He said the Army didn't even use its more advanced versions of the M-1 tank and Bradley Fighting Vehicles.
Some believe Iraq could be the last hurrah for what the Army calls its "legacy armor."
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is pushing all of the military services to come up with plans for fighting wars of the future with lighter forces that are easier to deploy. Decisions on what the future of the Army will look like are due next month, and production aims at putting the new equipment on the field by 2008 or 2010.
The U.S. Army last year cut future funding for heavy armor like the Abrams, signaling an end for the system. Some generals are pushing for a replacement that will be a version of the smaller, more gas efficient 20-ton wheeled tank called the Stryker, which could be easily air-lifted to battlefronts. The Army prefers to ship the Abrams by sea because only one fits inside the giant C-5A cargo plane.
Rumsfeld has signaled he agrees with Stryker critics, who say the vehicle is much too small and vulnerable to be an effective battle tank.
John Reppert, a retired U.S. Army brigadier general who now works at Harvard University's Belfer Center, said the lesson he took from the Iraq war was that there is still a role for a heavy battle tank armor on the battlefield. He said there are still large armies in the world that would require the use of a big battle tank like the M1 if a conflict emerged.
"They go wherever they want to go, and whenever they want to go, and they can drive back out," Reppert said. "I think there is going to continue to be a role for the tank. The question is in what numbers."
Army planners conceived of the Abrams in the early 1970s when the Pentagon's war plans were concentrated on confronting the Soviets. The tank entered service in 1983, and most units are equipped with the M1A1 version first built in 1985.
A dramatically upgraded version, the M1A2, appeared in 1993 equipped with digital targeting equipment and improvements to its armor. The Army's 4th Infantry Division, which was still assembling in Kuwait when the heavy fighting ended, is equipped with this upgraded version, but most of the tanks that fought the Iraq war were the older M1A1 versions.
Army Secretary Thomas White says the generals are pleased with the Abrams.
"Once we can get it wherever you want it to get, it creates mayhem," he said. "But it takes awhile to ship it there, and it eats a lot of fuel."


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 01:41 
Hopefully we will see a serious effort at an M-1A3 now.

"Nuts"


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 10:11 
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I'm guessing that version would be for urban warfare, with a higher calibre lower velocity cannon?


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 10:26 
No, i doubt it.

I would expect that it would have the latest German 140mm/55 gun, maybe even an autoloader(imagine that), and a better Co-ax/TCW for APERS.

I would also think that we may start seeing ERA on M-1's in the future, now that it has been proven they are vulnerable to ATGM's on the flanks/rear.

New rear grill armored slats have already been designed, tested and shipped to the Gulf.

"Nuts"


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 10:51 
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Sounds like some nice improvements.
How about you design the tank?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
I'd like to see a auto that's as reliable and quick as a manned loader.




Edited by - Tritonal on Apr 20 2003 09:55 AM


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 10:59 
The Ukranians have just recently perfected a 120mm butress style autoloader that is supposed to be all the rage, and is the first of it's kind.

If the M-1 is going to get an AL, that'll be the style they will use.

An additional outer detonation/decapping plate on the skirts and aft hull(thin 1/8" stainless plate would work fine for this) would be an excellent enhancement as well.

"Nuts"


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 12:52 
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'Might also be able to incorporate those Electromagnetic armor on the sides and the back=almost unstoppable.

<center>The Tank lives on...</center>


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 13:38 
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hmmm..... I wonder what an EMP would do to electric armor?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 13:58 
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as far as I'm concerned the main advantage of an MBT the size of Abrams (and others) is the same advantage as a stealth aircraft, security for the operators. A stealthy aircrew can focus on the task at hand rather that spend all thier time on the defensive looking for SAMs and flak. A crew of a heavy MBT can sit on post and not have to worry so much about getting nicked by a sapper of some kind with a medium weapon, can you imagine being in one of these "fast attack" type vehicles? you litteraly couldent come to a stop for anything cause your mobility is your main defense! Give us a short barrel mod for an urban Abrams and keep the production line open, the thing's a rolling fortress and I want to keep it that way.

"cell phones detecting B-2s" CLASSIC example of the media ALMOST understanding a concept LOL. The Idea is that a stealth aircraft can be detected by the scattering of RF/EM waves coming of it's surface. Lockheed demonstrated a couple of years ago that they could use "ambiant RF" (TV, radio, cell phone transmittions) to detect an aircraft by monitoring the abient RF and detecting changes in that baseline environment, you MIGHT then be able to cue a targeting system to the aircraft for a weapon. I like stealth but I'm not an "all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy. Thats why I prefered the YF-22 to the YF-23, I felt the 22 had more meneuverability potential than the 23 , should stealth ever be rendered ineffective.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on Apr 20 2003 1:02 PM

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 16:10 
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As long as its NBC protected then the electric armor is safe.


There's also reports of British radars that tracked F-117's in the Gulf War at a good tactical range of 112 kilometers. But, who knows if the airplanes radar receivers were turned on.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 16:30 
The Rapier and Sea Wolf SAM's are both optical CLOS units, and both can easily track a stealth precisely because they do not rely on radar.

An F-117(or whatever stealth aircraft) would normally have no business in the engagement envelope of either however.

"Nuts"

Edited by - M21 Sniper on Apr 20 2003 9:57 PM


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 22:13 
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I keep hearing that anecdote repeatedly although I don't know the specifics.

Hey Boomer, can you post the link of the article describing the plight of the helicopter? I want to read more.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2003, 23:43 
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that's the whole thing tritonal <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> just a blurb from the "washington" page IIRC in Av-Week

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2003, 00:34 
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Thanks for the heads up. I guess my question was answered to why I thought the Cobra was well-employed.


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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2003, 19:16 
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[quote]

There's also reports of British radars that tracked F-117's in the Gulf War at a good tactical range of 112 kilometers. But, who knows if the airplanes radar receivers were turned on.
----------

Read that too. Opening night in the Iraq War, the F-117s had also had at least 2 EA-6Bs along for the ride.

Apaches were spanked on the mass raid. They fixed them and regrouped finally.

Grunts had a helluva of a fight up to Baghdad. Some real stars were in the support troops who had to fight off bad guys and keep the LOCs moving. We used a helluva of a lot of airlift to keep the advance elements moving.

After action reports will be very interesting. They had J Model Hercs in Iraq. How well did Marine armor work? Army Bradleys took some serious RPG hits and kept on trucking. Warthogs did well again. Hopefully the Force will upgrade the birds, starting with more thrust.

Jack


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