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Actually, ALL of the planes BR lists are pretty well dated- if not obsolete.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Actually, ALL of the planes BR lists are pretty well dated- if not obsolete. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not really. Many Arab countries fly the MiG-23/-25 because Russia won't sell/they don't have money to buy advanced planes like the MiG-29 or Su-27. As for Israel using the F-15A, the IAF uses every single airframe that is capable of flying. If needed, Mirages and Kfir's from the Six-Day War in 1967 can be used. The last time an airframe was retired, was just this year when the Huey was completely replaced by Blackhawks. The Huey's were put in semi-retirement, still able to fly within an hour of giving the order to reactivate them. Tha last airframe before that to be retired was the Mirage in the early 1990's, after a massive amount of F-15A/-16A's were flown to Israel following the Gulf War

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

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Back to the topic, the F-15C has always owned the MiG-29 in combat. Combat proves a plane not some testing drill.

Ask Iraq, Syria and Yugoslavia how good the MiG-29 adds up to the F-15C.


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All 3 were BVR Kills..None were knife Fights.

also another fact. None of the Mig-29 advesaries had a BVR engagement capability when these events took place. Nor did they have an GCI or ACI capability. Also each Advesarial Fighter was Alone and had no battlefield management or Team engagement procedures in place.

Mounting BVR capability on any airframe doesnt make it Dogfight Superior. If this philosofy is what makes us superior, Lets then mount the capability on a C-17 and ask our advesaries to mount the Amraamski on the IL-72.

So tell me then. Who is the best manufacturer. Boeing or Illushin?

Truong there are so many errors in your argument, and the way you applied it. You simply have not been in a position to know the true facts of what the mig-29 is capable of in comparison to the F15C

The Mig 29 is and always will be a threat to the F15c community. It's the reason we invest vast amounts of Dollars and resources in our Battlefield management and Technology from preventing these fights from taking place.

"Truong there are so many errors in your argument, and the way you applied it. You simply have not been in a position to know the true facts of what the mig-29 is capable of in comparison to the F15C"


First off its a mismatch as the F-15C is for air superiority and the MiG-29 is a point air defense fighter but anyways. The MiG-29A is not a good plane by any strech of the imaginiation. It has bad engines (RD-33 don't have a long life), its radar (N-019) is easy to jam and the R-27 sucks. It flew in combat in the Ethopia/Ertrea war and failed to make a single kill while losing 4 (vs. the Su-27S) in return. It's short range means it cannot do CAPs all it does is fly up and hope to catch the enemy plane (never happened).



"also another fact. None of the Mig-29 advesaries had a BVR engagement capability when these events took place. Nor did they have an GCI or ACI capability."

The kills in the II Gulf War (1991) were with the AIM-7M (sparrow) the MiG-29s were carrying the R-27R in all the combat missions so they could have at least fired back but none did. The plane has poor sensors. It's not the F-15s fault the Serbians and Iraqis were not as good as the USAF, but during the battles the GCI was working, not well but it was online.


"All 3 were BVR Kills..None were knife Fights."

They had the R-27R so they could have fought back. And hte USAF made AIM-7 kills in the Gulf.


And 2 years ago the IDF/AF F-15Cs shot down 2 MiG-29As of Syria with the AIM-9M and Python 4 in a dog fight the Syrians started (not an ambush). You can go to www.acig.org and check that one.


Throw up an agruement for the Mig-29 being better that does not invole a mock dog fight..........

Thanx for your professional assesment Mudd.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

A good dog fight is hardly anything at all these days.

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A good dog fight is hardly anything at all these days.

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There are two categories of fighter pilots: those who have performed, and those who
someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy

I'm getting the feeling that this is getting a bit out of hand, and I think we should all calm down and go to our corners before Snipe does something we might regret.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Nah...not me.

I thoroughly enjoy watching Mudd get 'tone' on people that have never flown a combat aircraft.

Looks like Troung is the latest victom, hehehe.



"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Well, all I'm gonna say is that I've been down this road a couple times, and it rarely ends pretty. But hey, that's why you're a Moderator and I'm just an Addict.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Edited by - bigross86 on May 27 2003 07:05 AM

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Also each Advesarial Fighter was Alone and had no battlefield management or Team engagement procedures in place.

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Hey Mudd, I've got a question for you...are you sure all of them were alone? The reason I'm asking is that I seem to remember reading somewhere that 2 of the MiG-29's that were shot down over Bosnia were in a flight of 2.

Ted

Boring the world, one post at a time.

mrMudd;

Are you saying the MiG-29 is on the same level as the F-15C?

I have a hard time understanding what we are disuccing.



Anyways..............

The MiG-29 has been owned by 3 different types of combat planes in REAL combat the F-15C, F-16 and Su-27S. It never scored a kill on any of these mind you the IDF/AF shot down 2 MiG-29s in 2001 at close range with short range missiles (AIM-9M and Python 4) after the MiG-29s looked sure to attack a ELINT plane so thats not a BVR kill and niether are the kills made in thew Ethopia vs. Eritrea when the EtAF Su-27S/UBs shot them down at close range with the R-73 (they damaged one MiG-29 with a R-27). So not all the kills on the MiG-29s were at BVR and mind you the MiG-29 carries 2 BVR missiles with it on missions (the R-27R/T). An A-4 in topgun classes can "shoot" down a F-15 but in the real world that means very little.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> It never scored a kill on any of these mind you the IDF/AF shot down 2 MiG-29s in 2001 at close range with short range missiles (AIM-9M and Python 4) after the MiG-29s looked sure to attack a ELINT plane so thats not a BVR kill <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The whole story can be found at http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_53.shtml

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> An A-4 in topgun classes can "shoot" down a F-15 but in the real world that means very little.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Why does it mean little? The pilots in A-4's are some of the best in the world, and the plane is small to simulate the MiG's that our pilots would be fighting. If a F-15 is shot down it brings the F-15 pilot to work harder so that when the real thing DOES come around, the MiG pilot, who has a small chance, now has even less of a chance. To minimize the advantage your opponent has is one of the key objectives in battle, and given the chance, the golden BB will happen, and it isn't always in your advantage.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Anything that has cannon armament, and aam's is a threat.......We learned that the hard way in Vietnam, when "obsolete" Mig-17's, and 19's handed us our asses and scattered US Navy, and USAF pilots, and 3 million dollar (1965 dollars) F-4 Phantoms all over the Jungle floor.........After we started taking them seriously, and applied the proper tactics we regained our air superiority, though we never lost it, we didn't exactly shine in that conflict either..............From a air dominance standpoint.........Hence the F-14's, F-15's, F-16's, F-18's and Raptors of today..........The F-4 was NOT an archaic aircraft in 1972 when the Tomcat replaced it (USN), or in 1974 when the F-15 replaced it(USAF).........Those bloody lessons are the exact reason why we do not underestimate the Mig-29's, and SU-27's of today, and no small reason why the learning curve to become a fighter pilot is so steep.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

"Anything that has cannon armament, and aam's is a threat......."

Gotta agree there Chadrewski.

Coming under fire is no fun at all.

And one thing is for sure....incoming rounds don't give a rat's ass what flag you are flying. If you're in their way...well...it's not pretty.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"