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here's something youz mighta missed!!
<img src="http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/mig_i-2000_001.jpg" border=0>

ok stop laughing, here's the text:

Iran?s Stealthy Advanced Attack Aircraft (F-22 Killer)
ALTHOUGH IRAN was known to be involved in the design of an advanced trainer and attack aircraft, little information had been available about the project until the show. Known as Shafagh (Farsi for ?light before the dawn?). The aircraft is being funded by Iran?s Ministry of Defence and has been designed by the Aviation University Complex (AUC), part of the Malek Ashtar University of Technology, one of Iran?s biggest design bureaux. The Shafagh is a sub-sonic aircraft, made of radar-absorbing materials with an empty weight of 11,000lb (5,00kg). It has a large leading edge root extension (LERX) and a root aft of the wing which it gives an unusual circular sub-section. The Shafagh boasts seven hardpoints ? three under each wing and one on the fuselage centreline station. The five-year project, working to the specifications of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, began three years ago and is currently in the initial design stage. Aerodynamic testing with a 1/7 scale model in the AUC?s wind tunnel has already been completed. Several photos at the stand showed that a full-scale mock up has been built, revealing a rather spacious cockpit. One source told AFM that installation of a Kilmov RD33 engine is currently being considered, which would dispel any misgivings about using a US engine because of sanctions. Russian industry is alleged to be involved on the project, although no one would comment on this. Roll-out of the first prototype is scheduled for 2008. According to personal at AUC, it has the responsibility of designing and developing air vehicles for the Iranian Armed Forces based on their orders, conducting aerodynamic testing; structural and system testing, and the flight tests and eventual manufacture of the prototypes.




"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on May 23 2003 8:51 PM

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Ummm....LOL.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.

yeah I've got a pic of it too, apparently it's gotten as far as full scale mock up, but hey, it aint MY money this time !!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

---and the US replied with a heartfelt "AMRAAM"...

"Speed puts me in the zone."

The Islamic Republic of Iran will learn the same lessons that the Isrealies did with the "Lavi". The only real reputable foreign design firm that is capable of their own R&D funding, pre-production testing, and then production of a quality product is SAAB but even then SAAB has alot of Western influence in their designs. Tiawan produced the IDF with marginal, very marginal success. Suhkoi and other Russian design firms may be able to provide technology and major subcontracting for the Iranian Shafagh, they still lack any experience what so ever is such technolgy as stealth, thrust vectoring, and super cruise. So in esseance, unless countries such as China, Russia, India, and Iran combine their meager aerospace resources, the F-22 will dominate the skies. The biggest threat to the F-22 is not any foreign aerospace entity, but our own politicians, and the old "guns v. butter" argument that just slam dunked the Armys Crusader program, though the SECDEF killed it, and is a reknown "hawk" make no mistake, he can do the same with the Raptor.

As for Iran, they are Persian, not Arabs............The majority of the population, like 80% still holds the United States in high regard. This is a far cry from Arab allies such as Saudi Arabia, or even Egypt where the regimes likes United States military aid, and social programs enough to keep its disgruntled populus at bay, despite the fact their poulations support subversive anti American organizations.

Boomer that picture wreaks of typical Soviet reverse engineering.......Except they seemed to morph the YF-23 into the F-22.

But like I said in a previous post...........anything that shoots is a threat, best not be caught like we were in 1941.......We laughed at the prospect of Mitsubishi designing anything with credance, well the Zeke was the best fighter in the world untill late 1942, it took a tremendous effort to achieve parity untill Hellcats, Corsairs, and Lightinings were avaliable for a counter measure. We already invested the blood, I wish politicians would take that in consideration when crunching numbers, dollars don't mean much when you are adding up the blood spilled by your own countrymen.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

well it's laughably a pipe dream at best for them , but the Iranians DO have experiance with comosite construction of aircraft so we have to be somewhat carefull about dismissing them as ragheads playing in the sand as we frequently do(it's also been reported that China is actually more advanced in composits and stealth than Russia, so who know what's going on out there).

I posted somewhere else about the interesting AOA qualities of circular wings, and I would kinda LIKE to see somebody besides the US take a stab at this sort of design just to see what it's like.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Trust me..........I would not underestimate the ability of Iran. Like I said earlier, they are not "ragheads"........I have a great deal of respect for the Persian people of Iran, I feel their governing radical Shiite Theocracy regime is a threat, and not the democracy that the Iranian people need, or what the newly liberated country of Iraq needs sitting on their eastern flank..........They could use our help as well. The people of Iran.

The Shah was atempting to bridge the gap between being a 16th century monarchy, to becomming a 20th century democracy........Outside influences fanned the flames of a revolution with a so called islamic fundementalist bent, when in all reality we can thank our Soviet friends, and other "allies" I wont name here for supporting the Mullahs and creating the mess we have their today.

That being said, the impressive infrastructure the Shah built up into his air defense program still exists, while dated, the fasct that the Islamic Republic of Iran still has a formidable air arm, is a direct compliment to the man, and American friend that built it.......

Can the Shafagh become a reality???
I doubt it.........Hopefully Iran will be back to using western technology by that time.........

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

On a side note..........The F-14 revolutionized composite aircraft constuction, the Nixon Administration deemed Iran less of a security risk then say Isreal, thus the Shah was purchasing F-14's and the Israelies got the F-15.........The F-15 fit the needs of Israel very well, but the F-14 was not avaliable to them either.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

just to be clear chad, despite the proximity of my post I wasnt refering to you when I made the "raghead" remark, just people in general.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Iran has been described as having a Pro-American populace while having an Anti-American govt.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> thus the Shah was purchasing F-14's and the Israelies got the F-15.........The F-15 fit the needs of Israel very well, but the F-14 was not avaliable to them either.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The F-14 was barely considered at the time. Israel only buys multi-function airframes, which the F-14 definitely was NOT at the time. It was solely an air superiority airplane. Later the Bombcat came out, but by then Israel had already bought F-15's and F-16's. That is the same reason that Israel doesn't have F/A-18's. They cannot viably have a dual-purpose role as an aircraft. It's either one mission or the other, which isn't acceptable in the IAF way of thinking

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

And the F-15A was 'multirole'?

LOL.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The F-14 was barely considered at the time. Israel only buys multi-function airframes, which the F-14 definitely was NOT at the time. It was solely an air superiority airplane <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The TFX (F-14) requirement also included a secondary air to ground role.........The F-15A by the way, at that time was not a dual purpouse aircraft either "not a pound fpr air to ground" was the phrase coined by both the F-14, and F-15 communities in the early 70's, but both camps knew damn well their aircraft could do both missions..........And yes, the IAF was looking into the purchase of the F-14 as a air dominance fighter, Syrian Mig-25's were flying rec missions with relative impunity........The AWG-9 fire control system was very appealing to them as a countermeasure, and was tailored to work with their E-2's........F-15A eventualy got the nod, and no small reason was the potential security compromise, either a downed or crashed jet within that close of proximtity to several Soviet client states (Syria, Egypt, Jordan), was deemed unacceptable.



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That is the same reason that Israel doesn't have F/A-18's. They cannot viably have a dual-purpose role as an aircraft. It's either one mission or the other, which isn't acceptable in the IAF way of thinking <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

F/A-18 is a stike fighter...........Which means dual purpouse.
Israel did not need the Hornet, when it already had the F-16, and A-4...........

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Later the Bombcat came out, but by then Israel had already bought F-15's and F-16's. That is the same reason that Israel doesn't have F/A-18's. They cannot viably have a dual-purpose role as an aircraft. It's either one mission or the other, which isn't acceptable in the IAF way of thinking
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The USN must make the most of a very limited compliment of airframes, thus dual purpose "strike fighters" is a reality, the Bombcat and Hornet are both Navy aircraft, and strike fighters...........which means they can cary ordanance to the enemy, no escort required (only the Tomcat can do it further, longer, and with more lethality ........If that is not dual purpose I don't know what definition you are going by.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Dual-role isn't the only factor, but it's one of the main ones. For instance, the F/A-18 can't land without jettisoning it's ammo. The F/A-18 also can't carry a A2G and A2A mix. It's either one mission or the either. The same with the Tomcat. Back in the late 1970's, early 1980's, the F-14 was solely air-superiority, because the A-6E was still around. Now the F-14 can do both A2A and A2G, but back then it's A2G role was not much. The F-15 can carry a mix of A2A and A2G at the same time, and doesn't need to jettison it's ammo if it doesn't use it.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

The current F-18 has to jetison some of its ordanance to trap aboard a carrier, not to land on a runway.........Huge distinction. And yes it can carry a mix of air to air and air to ground weapons.........In Desert Storm, a USN F-18 shot down a Mig-21 enroute to its target, completed its strike, and trapped abord the carrier.........

The F-15A was not sold to Israel originaly as a "dual purpose" fighter, it was an air to air killer.........And a damn good one as its results over Syria illustrate, A-4's and F-4's provided the ground pounding then, with F-16's later. The F-14 was not utilized for the strike role because the Navy had the A-6E, you are correct.........But it can now do both the strike, and maritime air superiority role at the same time........as well as go on a recce run.



If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The current F-18 has to jetison some of its ordanance to trap aboard a carrier, not to land on a runway <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

True, but we are talking about the early 1980's when the Hornet just wasn't an option. The F-15 was chosen over the F-14, because they both could do air-to-air, but the Eagle could do A2A and A2G in the same mission, something the Tomcat couldn't do. As for F-4's and A-4's, the Kurnas 2000 is also used in both capacities at the same time. The A-4 is the only sole air to ground plane in the inventory, and A-4's are used as Agressors in training, plus they can and are used for base defense, using their speed and cannon.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

The F-15A that was sold to Israel in the late 1970's was an air superiority system only, the dual role capability was added later.........McDonnell Douglas sold the F-15A Eagle concept, as an air superiority machine with no compromises from a dual role........

Israel was very interested in the F-14 for another reason, its VG wing design gives the Tomcat very good STOL characterisitcs, which is extremeley usefull when runways are bomb damaged. The F-14 was suffering serious growing pains being indoctrinated into the fleet by the late 70's, almost embarrising mission readiness ability, something that did not impress the IADF.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

One of the reasons the IAF bought the F-15, thgouh, was the fact that they saw that it could be a dual-purpose fighter, while the F-14 couldn't. The F-14's teething problems probably had something to do with the IAF not buying them, but the lack of dual-purpose is probably what killed it.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

The F-14..........Like the F-15............Had a dual purpose ability, neither was exploited, but both was reckognized. The F-14A and F-15A were both exported as air superiority systems, but it was generaly acknowledged that both aircraft could adapt to the air to ground role..........The F-14A was photographed in 1971 with an impressive bomb loadout, on modified Pheonix pallets.

The fact is neither of us know why the decesion was made to procur the F-15A, however..........Israel was considered to be to high of a security risk for Pheonix, and AWG-9 technology. That is a fact.

Both airframes would have made a fine choice, but stating that Israel "got the pick of the litter" is false, the got what technology we wanted them to have, then. Where as the Shah essentialy recieved whatever he deemed neccessary for the security of Iranian airspace, a blank checkbook to our technology, though he did recive a downgraded version of the AWG-9, it was still the most sophisticated air to air fire control system in the world. In my opinion, had we been able to keep Iran within our sphere of influence, most of the problems within the Persian Gulf would not have happended, including Desert Strom, and The liberation of Iraq.

Iran under the rule of the Shah was pro Isael and had diplomatic ties with Syria, Iraq, and Egypt........(The Shah's son married Anwar Sadat's daughter)

This is getting off topic, but the point is The F-15A is what we wanted Israel to have, and they didn't exactly get a dog did they?

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

Edited by - chadrewsky on Jun 01 2003 1:15 PM

True, but you still got to admit, the IAF modifcations are something out of this world. The Kurnas 2000, the F-15I, and the F-16I are much more advanced then their counterparts around the world.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Amazing what you can do when someone else is paying for it, no?

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Israel has had some very impressive mods to our designs, using there own battle experice as a guide. Isreal does not have the geographic luxery to "stand idle"......

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Amazing what you can do when someone else is paying for it, no? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sorry to burst your bubble, Snipe, but the IAF's budget doesn't come out US support, it comes out of the Israeli budget alone. US support goes to different branches of government and goes to teh unemployed and poeple without means to supprt themselved properly.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Nobody posting on this forum knows the specifics of foreign, and military aid to Israel. I can however state the known facts.....Israel has an extremely powerfull lobby in Washington D.C. and Israel lacks the natural resources, other than its people, to export any significant commodity. Israel has the finest and most technological advanced weapons that money can buy. So who knows exactly were the US aid goes.......But without it, Israel would not be able to field the formidable military that it does.

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!