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Come on, Ellie, I wanna hear it! "Peace in our time!" I wanna hear you say it!

The UK would have starved without US intervention. Just ask anyone old enough to remember those days in England.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Jeeze what a turn this thread has took.....
Eurofighter is junk, Sweeden is the tops in the European aircraft industry, though I don't know if the Swedish like being called Europeans.

In regards to WWII, the only thing that really saved the British were Goerings debacle at Dunkirk, and the English Channel prevented the Wermercht from taking England proper. The English would have never signed a peace acoord with Germany, for the simple fact that England did not want an emerging european superpower to challange her declining and erroding empire.

The Russians wanted nothing to do with WWII.....Ribbentrop/Molotov non-agression pact of 1939 illustrated that. The USSR only entered the fight after they deemed Finland an easy landgrab (which was an ebarrasment to the Red Army) and Hitler commenced "Barbarrosa" in 1941.

Take the United States out of the equation.......Lend Lease to the Brits and Soviets, and later military intervention. Hitler would have staked his 1000 years Reich from the Ukraine to Western France, and controlled Europe. And, while we were doing this we were also engaged in a brutal camapaign agaisnt the Japanese. People like to point out the heavier Russian losses, well just because the US put a higher priority on human life, does that mean we were less of a deciding factor?

Benard Montgomery was a homo anyways.....

If your not having fun, your not doing it right!

i always find it funny to read americans writing "we saved your ass in ww2" when its not the truth

the americans expected the uk to fall in 2 weeks, they even sent reporters to cover our fall.

The americans also stayed completely neutral for months, before selling the uk 50 old destroyers in exchange for bases.

If the US had not been involved, the uk would have had to withdraw from the east, and abandon india, forget about helping the russians (the russian convoys), and concentrate on the pacific and the channel (food supply and defence). The battle of britain severely weakened the luftwaffe, the luftwaffe fighting the russians did not have the pilots of those of 1940.

Operation sealion was a joke, and whats more, hitler genuinly admired the british for some reason and was desperate to make peace with the uk.

The simple fact is that the russians were germanys biggest opponents, in your own presidents words they "tore the guts from the german war machine". Denying this, well you can if you want, but it merely displays ignorance.

I do like americans, but i never understand this "we saved everyones ass" attitude that some display.Yes the us was a vital part in beating the germans and japs.

But so were the british and russians, denying such, makes light and is an insult to those british servicemen who died helping to defeat the nazis

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i always find it funny to read americans writing "we saved your ass in ww2" when its not the truth

the americans expected the uk to fall in 2 weeks, they even sent reporters to cover our fall.

The americans also stayed completely neutral for months, before selling the uk 50 old destroyers in exchange for bases.

If the US had not been involved, the uk would have had to withdraw from the east, and abandon india, forget about helping the russians (the russian convoys), and concentrate on the pacific and the channel (food supply and defence). The battle of britain severely weakened the luftwaffe, the luftwaffe fighting the russians did not have the pilots of those of 1940.

Operation sealion was a joke, and whats more, hitler genuinly admired the british for some reason and was desperate to make peace with the uk.

The simple fact is that the russians were germanys biggest opponents, in your own presidents words they "tore the guts from the german war machine". Denying this, well you can if you want, but it merely displays ignorance.

I do like americans, but i never understand this "we saved everyones ass" attitude that some display.Yes the us was a vital part in beating the germans and japs.

But so were the british and russians, denying such, makes light and is an insult to those british servicemen who died helping to defeat the nazis

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I can see we are gonna have a problem...did you even read the above posts? It was a combined effort, no one country could have turned Hitler’s army back...the UK would have fallen, no, not in two weeks, but it would have, sorry. I'm an English born American, I except that fact...The US fought WWII on multiple fronts, not only in Europe & Africa, but Asia too...Did we save the UK, Yes & No, but, and in typical fashion, once it is over, the US is the bad guy...it is typical the US gets a "thanks for saving us/freeing us/ect. Now get the hell out, and oh by the way, in a few years we are gonna give you sh*t too." Maybe your history books are different than the ones I have read..to be honest...if WWII would have gone another year or two the outcome could have been very different...the aircraft designs the Germans were working on would have kicked our bombers a##...even the B-29s......Who cares, WWII was over 50 plus years ago...let it go, Americans are arrogant, everyone knows that...let us be, we should be allowed to, because we always "come to the rescue" even if we aren't wanted, but needed (and before you say anything, our greatest allie, England is by our side 99% of the time)....Are we always right...hell yeah (just kidding, trying to lighten the post <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)...But sometimes you have to step forward and do what others feel isn't right, so that more won't have to die...end of subject...

Lets try to get back on topic before someone says something to REALLY piss of members of the board...Thanks ya'll...


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If you can't go fast...go Ugly

Edited by - prkiii on Jun 18 2003 6:56 PM

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Hmmmmm.....

"i always find it funny to read americans writing "we saved your ass in ww2" when its not the truth

the americans expected the uk to fall in 2 weeks, they even sent reporters to cover our fall.

The americans also stayed completely neutral for months, before selling the uk 50 old destroyers in exchange for bases.

If the US had not been involved, the uk would have had to withdraw from the east, and abandon india, forget about helping the russians (the russian convoys), and concentrate on the pacific and the channel (food supply and defence). The battle of britain severely weakened the luftwaffe, the luftwaffe fighting the russians did not have the pilots of those of 1940.

Operation sealion was a joke, and whats more, hitler genuinly admired the british for some reason and was desperate to make peace with the uk.

The simple fact is that the russians were germanys biggest opponents, in your own presidents words they "tore the guts from the german war machine". Denying this, well you can if you want, but it merely displays ignorance.

I do like americans, but i never understand this "we saved everyones ass" attitude that some display.Yes the us was a vital part in beating the germans and japs.

But so were the british and russians, denying such, makes light and is an insult to those british servicemen who died helping to defeat the nazis"

OK, US never gets involved. Japan, Italy, and Germany keep Briton contained, and focus their combined might on Russia from both the East and West.

Russia crumbles.

THEN the Axis comes for your silly little island. Or just bombs it until the end of eternity with V-1 and V-2 rockets, and all those neat-o Nazi jets of the Second World War.

Damned right the US saved your asses.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Oh, btw.....at the same time we were supplying the entire allied war machine and playing the major role in defeating the Nazis we were also singlehandedly crushing the Japanese empire half a world away on a battlefield that covered 1/3 of the Earth's surface.

Europe was a sideshow. The real war was in the Pacific.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Didn't the Australians help in the Pacific Theatre?-Just curious.

You know, for some reason, with the way you guys talk about this stuff, all I can think of is one big-ass risk game. Of course it might say something that whenever I play Risk I end up with a mighty but spread out empire, and by the time reinforcements arrive, I don't have enough troops, and I end up losing more than I gained. It sux.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

WWII? Yes.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Economy of force is important, even in risk.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

So, tell me again what resources the UK had to defeat the U-boats? Hmmm, don't take care of the German subs, no fuel, no metal, no food...Despite the US being neutral, we certainly provided Britain with the resources she needed to survive, same with the Russians. We provided Russia with FULLY A THIRD of her air force.

Australians did more than their fare share during WW II, considering the meager resources at their disposal, and were also in North Africa, as well.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

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THEN the Axis comes for your silly little island.
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shrug, i didnt want to get into a long debate on this, i came to talk about aircraft amongst a board populated by those i thought were friends and allies. With a family history in the R.A.F i thought it would be interesting to exchange views

Last place i expected anti-brit feeling about our "silly island" was an american forum.

So, im off, have fun guys.

It's not anti-UK, it's anti-attitude towards diminishing the truly GLOBAL role the US played in WW II. We would be more than interested to hear what you have to offer and experienced regarding your family's involvment with the RAF.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

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As a matter of fact one of the carriers right now doesn't even have ANY F14s, replaced them all with shiny new SuperHornets.

"The only time the French want us to go to war is when the German army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."

"The last time the French asked for more proof it came marching into Paris under the German flag."
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Whut carrier is it? Lots of countries would big money pay to know that info. Bet even the French could conquer that carrier <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Semper Gumby: Always Flexible

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Abe Lincoln, I believe, and there are more, now.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Hey, i'm sorry Ellie, but the fact is the US did save Briton, you could not have won without us.

Hence my attitude.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

and if we had sued for peace and left the russians and germans to it, europe would be nazi or communist now

anyway sorry if i seem sensitive on it all, my own family was heavily involved. And im proud of our stand and the battle of britain etc

anyway back on topic

im no fan of the eurofighter, i think its doctrine is outdated. Stealth is the way of the future, not agility etc as the typhoon emphasises. Although its signature IS small

However, i dont think it matters, as the only superior planes will be the US aircraft, and the raf wont be facing them. Id of course have preferred us to have built our own. But to be fair, In the BVR department it outclasses any planned future Russian/Chinese fighters. The CAPTOR radar is very good. Meteor seems excellent


The RAF version is more expensive than the other versions and has some extras that make it better. They have a package designed by BAE that enhances its strike abilities and it can carry 18 brimstone for anti armour for instance.
It also has a lot of extra decoys and countermeasure devices.

So, in conclusion, yep the f-22 will be much better, but as i cant see the f-22 expored, it doesnt matter really. And at least the RAF has forced our MOD to uprgrade the versions we are getting
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Hey Ellie welcome aboard.......DOH ! there I go talkin like sailor again. Anyhoo I think I read somewhere that the Brits had allready signed onto the F35 program and were actively involved in the flight testing. You limies are up to something else also. Last year I took a trip to Raechel, Nevada. Thats the town, the only town, outside of Groom Lake or Area 51 as conspiracy theorists call it. I was eating luch at the little dinner there and met three Brits that were on loan to the USAF and doing flying at Groom Lake. I wanted to ask what they were flying but I was affraid that they would zap me with a laser powered molecule reorganizer, turn me into dilithium crystals and use me to power a starship to a weird planet like Talos 5, so I didnt ask. But they were up to something because everyone at Groom Lake is up to something. Maybe they were working on the F35 program. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

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YGBSM !

Freak, et al...
The Eurofighter has got to be the all time record breaker in being the most expensive non-deployable and non-functioning aircraft in the history of aviation. When you guys "grade" fighters with your emotions and end up with neat phrases such as "God powers my whatever", I want you to know just how close you are to the truth. You see, since fighters began there has been a sacred "Holy Trinity" in their design and function. It has been a dead simple set of criteria and for sure one that pleased God because it made the beasts of flight go "FARTHER", "FASTER", and "HIGHER", as if trying to always shake the bonds of earth and reach for the face of God, as the poetry so well tells us.

So if any new platform does not do it all, then you have to make up for it somewhere else. When you design an F-117, you go against God's natural law of fighters, and so in the end you can't bring it out in daylight, have to keep it out of the rain, and you have to launch dozens of aircraft to mask its presence, but if you wanted precision strike you got it. Many times after the fact, a bad fighter is made better becaue weapons and avionics make it do the job intended better even though it limps along in the Holy three brute force categories, definately the case for the F-18. Despite itself, it is doing better each year. What about the B-2, had all the big three but no mission systems and equipment until JDAM's came along and look out Lucy, the big B2 comes roaring up your shorts and it can re-role and communicate in a network centric way and drop those bombs that all but compensate for its non-existent weapon system.

Also the reason why the F-4 and F-14 are still with us, in fact despite all of your inputs the F-14 is the greatest fighter ever created and still could be made better with things that will expands it capability to go faster, higher, and farther, but no it also can do everything else with a fully integrated state of the art weapon system,,, the Navy cries everday the loose another one and there are no more. As the Euro fighter becomes the bigest waste in aviation, the demise of the F-14 becomes the biggest tragedy. Pray that the US Navy never has to go back into the big leagues again with fighters and the missile cruisers and UAV's will fill in the holes until they take over. Manned aircraft need F-14 like capabilities and beyond.

The F-22 rises above the F-14 and hence it could be number one, but without two seats it will always be directed from the ground and that may work with today's systems, but it will not work if the enemy was equal or better.

The Eurofighter was presented as a fighter that was to go higher, faster, and farther, but in reality it was always the little simulator game sent around the world that didn't guage fuel use that everyine had a chance to play with and nobody asked hard questions. In fact the whole UK press was put on notice by BAe that any bad press was akin to suicide and they bought out one air marshal after another from the ranks of the RAF soon to be retired. Now they have run out of people to pay, they have hired them all, but the jet is still junk and even the Spanish, Italians and Germans who build it, will not want any in their units operational at best they may field the first unit, then go after used F-16's as the Italians finally did.

The high tech in Eurofighter is a joke, the robust engines are not that, the canard design is a disaster wwiting to happen, too complex to be useful, too small to make a difference. The JDAM will sdave its non-existent air-to-ground capablity, but the carriage is still in question (bad CG magagement) and the interface not there. You can't argue with the BAe people, they refuse logic, so the government is slowly coming to point where they say... "show me", hence it will be a miracle if there is an IOC by 2007, even with the standards changed to allow the first production aircraft to show up to satisfy IOC. The methodology demonstrates the fantasy that goes with the aircraft.

Easy

Don't get me wrong, Ellie, we love the Brits and I have great respect for their courage, resilience, and performance during the Second World War (Monte and the RN bailing on us during Midway not-withstanding, lol). While down in Arizona near Davis-Monthan AFB, it brought a smile to my face to see and hear the UK Tornados doing circuits on exercises.

By the way, I've begun referring to the Eurofighter as the Eurospender...

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Thanks for the welcome aboard ;p

Well ive been against the eurofighter from the start, i think european projects have had mixed success at best. Shadow storm is a success, the horizon debacle ws an example of a disaster (the uk broke away from the project to build the type45 with a better radar).
The tornado, well the f3 is a flying brick to be honest.For the cost of 20B we could have developed our own.


However, i do know that the RAF complained a lot about the eurofighter because it had limited fuel capacity, insuffient ground attack ability and werent happy with the craft overall and a lot of changes were made for the RAF version, here are a few examples

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Laser Warning Receiver (LWR) : RAF only
It is not uncommon to find aircraft fitted with laser range finding equipment to accurately determine distances. There are also laser guided weapons available which ride the beam to their target. To counter such threats the RAF Typhoon's will be equipped with a Laser Warning Receiver, LWR. Mounted below the nose the units will be capable of detecting any incoming laser radiation and determine its bearing."

Towed Radar Decoy (TRD) : RAF only

One of the most recent additions to the arsenal of active radar counter measures is the Towed Radar Decoy or TRD. These systems deploy a unit externally from the aircraft on some kind of cable. As part of the basic Royal Air Force specification the DASS incorporates either one or two TRDs (the number is dependent on other systems present in the starboard pod, i.e. Cross-Eye) as standard. The units will be carried in the Starboard side pod and will be capable of being recovered or jettisoned as the situation may dictate.

The RAF's DASS TRD is to be a development of BAE Systems Ariel system which has already been successfully deployed on RAF Tornado's and Nimrod's. The major physical difference is a decrease in the overall size enabling carriage within the Typhoon's pods. The unit is deployed from the pod on a 100m Kevlar® cable containing a Fibre Optic (FO) link and a separate power distribution line. Through the FO cable the DAC's techniques generator can send commands to the decoy based radio frequency emitter. The TRD can produce a range of jamming techniques to fool or lure the missile away from the aircraft.

So far the DASS TRD has been successfully deployed at both subsonic and supersonic velocities aboard the DA2. The final system will be cleared using BAE Systems IPA1 during the later stages of trials beginning in 2002.


"Future of the Typhoon's FCS
When the first Eurofighter's are delivered to the airforces of the four partner nations the FCS they contain will be a preliminary edition. To this end the software will be upgraded in three stages between 2001 and 2005. The first, Tranche-1 deliveries of Typhoon will be fitted with Production Software Package 1 (PSP 1). This is primarily aimed at enabling enough aircraft facilities for training and conversion of pilots. This will be followed by PSP-2 which will enable the MIDS datalink and various aspects of DASS. The final installment, PSP-3 should become available as the first squadrons form in 2005. This will see full sensor and sensor fusion capabilities in addition to the remaining DASS and cockpit modes. For the RAF models additional software will be made available, also by 2005 to enable full air to ground modes. Beyond this additional flying time will no doubt open up further refinement and upgrade possibilities."

Of course the eurofightr will carry brimstine, alarm, meteor, and shadow storm. So, while not a match for the raptor, it will do the job ;p

Although as a strike craft im still a fan of the tornado to be honest ;p

hey ellie welcome!! I think someone (U.S. company) should just make a plane with the brits that is as dedicated to ground poundin as the Hog. I mean instead of a JSF we should have a slightly more powerful plane modeled around a powerful gun, and with slightly more stealthier features, and can carry a greater load than the JSF and can come home with no wings, and 1 engine (definitely should have 2 holes, not 1 like the JSF). Why waste money? I would like to see someone like Northrop Grumman work with EADS and make that. So it'd be a JAA joint attack aircraft. Well anyway I think as long as the U.s. works with Britain, there will be no problems.

There still is a "new Hog" out there, but it does not have the 30mm gun, although it has two seats and that has been a real dilemma for the Hog going to the allies, which make the US pilots happy that the aircraft stayed home. The alternative Hog is in Taiwan as the AT-3, has better engines and a big internal bombay... fitted with a Ligntning Pod and JDAM's, it could be a poor man's F-117 minus stealth, but over Columbia it could work

New high speed A-10...

Take one B-1B

Add a passel of 57MM guns in pods under the wings.

Well, you get the idea... Anyway, you have to admit it would have a great loiter time....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Hate to do this Ellie...

First I do want to say that I totally respect the UK, her current friendship with the US and her valor in WWII. But there is a valid reason why the US thinks they saved a lot of people's fannies in WWII.

1. Shipping of U.S. goods to the UK

<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Good's include:
1) Fuel, we supplied the vast majority of her fuel in WWII
2) Food
3) Metal
4) Guns, we manufactured millions of rifles for the UK
5) Aircraft, we built huge numbers of AC for Britain even before we entered the war
6) Ship repairs, performed major repairs on her ships in U.S. ports where they would be safe from German bombs
7) Bombs
Bullets


2. Civilians shipping personal arms to Britain to help fight the Germans in the streets if necessary as per Churchill's speech. Brits wouldn't have been able to do that because their restrictive gun control laws had banned most militarily useful weapons.
3. Volunteers for the UK Army and Air force
4. U.S. protection of convoys freeing up RN ships to battle Subs.
5. Freezing sales of fuel and scrap metal to Germany and Japan before the war started for the U.S.
6. 8,000,000+ servicemen and women fighting against the enemy world wide.
7. Shipping of U.S. goods to the USSR, see UK for further explanations, also, ditto for China.

<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Good's include:
1) Fuel
2) Food
3) Metal
4) Guns
5) Aircraft
6) Ship repairs
7) Bombs
Bullets

8. Logistics, almost all goods shipped during WWII were on U.S. built ships. The UK couldn't build cargo ships fast enough to replace those sunk. She would have starved without the US help.
9. France: we supplied absolutely everything they used as far as weapons go. I won't get into my personal feelings on France right now.


Bottom line: The U.S. could have made peace with Hitler as well. He wanted the U.S. to rule the Americas and, IIRC, to rule Asia. The Brits, IIRC, he wanted to rule Africa and the Middle East. He really didn't want to rule it all (Yet)only Europe and Russia. The U.S. stood up for what was right in order to save the world and herself. America supported the Chinese and Europe until she was strong enough to support herself, and finally, support the world in war. The war would have been lost without U.S. help. No one with good sense would even begin to doubt that. That's not bragging, that's fact! Bragging is just talk, it's not bragging when you can back it up.

Again, I mean no personal offense to anyone from any other country. Without the British keeping the Germans occupied in Europe, the U.S. wouldn't have had time to build her war machine. In 1939 the U.S. was in no position to take on any major power's army, although her war effort was fully underway at this time. We could give any Navy a run for her money, but our air forces and army were small and in pretty sad shape....


Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Edited by - Captain C on Jun 21 2003 7:03 PM