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I was curious about how the Warthog compares with the Marine's Harrier jump jet.

Cockpit
Harrier: HUD, Glass Cockpit, Night Capable
Warthog: HUD, Night Capable

Takeoff
Harrier: VSTOL
Warthog: CTOL

Cost
Harrier: $20 m
Warthog: $10 m

Armor
Warthog: Titanium armor plated

Compatible Weapons
Harrier: Aim-120, Aim-7, Aim-9, AGM-65, AGM-84, 25mm GAU-12 Cannon w/ 300 rounds, Iron, LGB's, JDAM, Rockets.
Warthog: Aim-9, AGM-65, 30mm GAU-8 gun w/ 1000 rounds, Iron, LGB's, Rockets

Paylaod
Harrier: 9 Hardpoints; 13,235 lbs stores.
Warthog: 11 Hardpoints; 16,000 lbs stores.

Avionics and Radar
Harrier: APG-65 Radar, Litening II Laser Targeting and TV Camera Recon, FLIR, and NVG
Warthog: WX-50 radar, FLIR, Laser

Engines
Harrier: (1) 23,800 lb thrust class [0.77]
Warthog: (2) 18,000 lb thrust class [0.71]

Speed
Harrier: Mach 0.9
Warthog: Mach .6

Combat Radius
Harrier: 103 miles
Warthog: 288 miles


Edited by - ViperTTB on Aug 16 2003 3:27 PM

Speaking from Af<i>dirt</i>istan, need to change that VSTOL to STOL. Apparently the air's too thin up here to support it! And the Harrier may be a bit faster, but they're a heck of a lot noisier! Grunts I've talked to that have ordered in CAS say they never know the Hog is there until things go BOOM!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Without Geospacial Intelligence You're Nowhere

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

And we all know how much fun the Hawg has making things go Boom!

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I was curious about how the Warthog compares with the Marine's Harrier jump jet.

Avionics and Radar
Harrier: APG-65 Radar, Litening II Laser Targeting and TV Camera Recon, FLIR, and NVG
Warthog: WX-50 radar, FLIR, Laser

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

How come <b>my</b> Hog doesn't have radar, FLIR, or Laser?

Comparing these two jets is apples and oranges. Both are primarily used in similar roles, but that's where any comparison ends.



ATTACK!

Air2Mud

I know the A-10 is bar none's the best CAS in the world. I was just seeing how the Harrier stacked up.

With regard to radar, I did my best going to websites to find info but couldn't find the radar.



Edited by - ViperTTB on Aug 17 2003 3:29 PM

could that "RADAR" be in referance to the ILS system or something? Maybee the "post" on top of the vert stab to increase RADAR RCS in friendly territories?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

What's the A-10's radar? APG-?

Mark I Eyeball and the little hairs on the back of the pilot's neck!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Without Geospacial Intelligence You're Nowhere

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

And occasionaly an AWACS up in the sky.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Vipe where did you get that "WX-50" referance? The prefix sounds like a weather RADAR.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Actually, LASTE is a radar system of sorts.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Actually, LASTE is a radar system of sorts.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

no but it uses one for its Degrage Bombing Calculations...lol

boomer

http://www.geocities.com/mdelgado_81/a10.htm

Westinghouse radar?

Makes sense.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

lol THAT explains it, that page is referancing the N/AW A-10 2 seater which WOULD have had a RADAR IF it had gone into production.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Check out the LA Times they ran a series of articles on the high crash rate for the harrier, and basically questioned whether the tax payors are getting their moneys worth.

The main points in the article are

<ul><li> vertical take off is rarely if ever used in combat, due to the fuel consumption and severly reduced ordinance loads. </li><li> Accident rate well above any other military aircraft </li><li> The number of death associated with accidents, many pilots not being able to sucessfully escape due the flight characteristics of the Harrier</li></ul> <ul><li>cost per aircraft being almost double comperable airframes to maintain and procure </li><li> vulnerability to IR missles</li><li> they even compare it to the A-10 which the articles point to a sucessful and survivalable aircraft</li></ul>

The articles started in January. I posted some of them. I will look for them.

another weakness of the Harrier / AV8 family is the pegasus, though its engine generates 23,000lbs thrust, the vectored nozzles reduce efficiency, however, flip side means the Can be a tricky customer in a dog fight.

Harrier is best suited to air to air roles, as used by the Royal Navy during the falklands compaign in 1982, but thats just My opinion.

Going up against tanks is not the harriers forte, besides, nothing nicer than the avenger cannon spewing out the wall of lead. after all, the gun wasnt built for the A-10, the A-10 was biilt for the gun!

<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/megazone23/su27.jpg" border=0>

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US

before any one mentions, the wall of lead was a metaphor, as the A-10 uses depleted uranium ammo @30mm caliber.

<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/megazone23/su27.jpg" border=0>

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US

The Harrier is a strike aircraft always has been always will be, Sea Harrier was a nessecity because the UK wanted to get rid of it's big carriers so the Phantom had to be replaced.

AV-8B/GR7 has done VERY well in OIF with it's FLIR pods and LGBs.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

I think of the a-10's radar more as a dirt indicator. "Altitude Altitude" is way different from a real ground radar.A-10s always had poor man's flir. Turn on IR MAV.

Without weapons its just another airliner

Some Hogs have Litening or LANTIRN pods now.

LASTE is a radar, after a fashion.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger."

[quote]
Check out the LA Times they ran a series of articles on the high Harrier</li></ul> <ul><li>cost per aircraft being almost double comperable airframes to maintain and procure </li><li> vulnerability to IR missles[/-------

Have read up to 50 million bucks per airframe now for the Harrier. Marines bet the farm on VTOL and are sucking hindtit with their real aircraft.

Falklands War is a one time event. Argos had a couple of minutes to fight and beat feet before running out of gas.

Changing a motor out of a Harrier is a real bitch. Have to remove the wing and it's about 4 days plus event.

Yeah, those nozzles really suck up IR SAMs. Think the Marines lost a handfull in the Gulf War to SAMs.

Marines had to build a lot of gas stations around Cherry Point to keep the Harriers safe. They really suck up gas in any VTOL event.

It does accelerate like a bat out of hell. Use to see them at Cheerless Point often. You wanna see a weird runway, Cherry Point ranks up there.

Moi always thought with the Harrier. US could had goosed it, add an efficient engine basically and other tweaks and have a real sweet bird. Am pretty sure NIH had a hand in not tweaking it properly.

We tweaked the hell out of the B-57 airframe and NASA still flies some WB-57s.

Guess we gotta see what the JSF really can do.

Jack

I just stumbled upon this thread and wanted to put my $.02 in.

I flew the AV-8B Harrier for several years in the USMC. It is a good aircraft - good, not great. But it does exactly what the Marines expect it to do.

The Harrier first became attractive in the late 60's due to it's flexible basing (i.e. it's not tied to a long runway). True, it is not often used in the vertical takeoff mode as this isn't fuel or ordnance efficient. Instead we primarily used a short takeoff roll - throttle to the firewall, airspeed quickly builds to calculated rotation speed, nozzles to 55 degrees, off the deck, crack the nozzles out a bit, retract the gear, feed the nozzles to full aft, raise the flaps....simple. But we would often come back for vertical landings. This ability to free up what limited space you might have solely for short/conventional takeoffs makes for more rapid turnarounds for the Harrier (i.e. you don't tie up the runway with landing aircraft).

Air-to-air? Sure, the Harrier can do it, and now with the APG-65 radar the Harrier drivers have a much better shot at it than I did (ARBS only version). Did we practice it? Yes, but air to ground was practiced 8-10 times as much. Can the Harrier put a "bat turn" on the bad guy and drive him out in front? Yep, but at what price? In air-to-air speed is life and if you spend all your energy in one big sierra hotel move you might just become a 1-g strafe or missle target (of course if it's this or have the guy behind you hose you then then I'd pick the bat turn). But we lived primarily below 200 feet so air-to-air was less of a threat down there.

Is it perfect? No way, but I submit no aircraft is. Are the hot (rear) nozzles poorly places when it comes to a heat seaker hit? Yep. Can the Harrier survive a hit? Some have, other have not. It's not the Warthog but was never intended to be. Bottom line is the Harrier provides the Marines with a quick response, self-contained CAS platform that will be there quicker than most other assets (based solely on FEBA basing). And one last thing...don't discount the man in the Harrier cockpit. He, like all Marines, is a rifleman first, and that camaraderie between airdale & grunt is a powerful bond making the Marine aviator a formidable asset to the air-ground team.

I got pics of them removing the wing to trade-out an engine on a B, rather surprising to say the leaste.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

[quote]
I got pics of them removing the wing to trade-out an engine on a B, rather surprising to say the leaste.

------------

Yeah and it sounds like a real fun functional check flight then. Not just a new motor, you have to sweat the wing being installed properly. An engine FCF, ain't no biggie. I sweated controls being worked on. Starting with, if I hit left aileron which way is the puppy going? Or split flaps? Ut oh. Now that I think about it, does a Harrier have flaps?

Jack