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at what point in a turn can you say "ok now I'm pulling a sustained G"? Since a plane will bleed off airspeed in the turn the G will change (probobly rising then falling depending on the entry speed), so when do you say ok THAT'S a sustained G? One full 360º at a particular G?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomer, that new avatar kicks ass. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Yeah it does. <img src=newicons/saevil.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

crap, I thought I was actually getting a response to the quesstion ROFL

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

I think you answered your question at the end.
I believe it has to do with which pitch and AoA you acquire for a duration of time; added thrust may also compensate the bleed-off of air speed as the airspeed and G-rating changes. In Addition, I also think its very difficult to have a sustained G in a 360 degree turn since variables can change.
There, an answer; An ill-educated best guess, but an answer just as well.


<font size=1><i>*Now I'll just wait for the Big Thug to crap all over my reply.</i></font id=size1>

Nah i got the Flu so when i Yell, i sound like an anti-Tabacoo Ad, and i dont smoke....

Boomer the amount of a sustained G is dependent on the alpha applied, Drag producers and AOA.

A sustained G is the Constant G you can maintain in a turn, It is indefinate. Since Thrust and AOA is what helps you maintain it. Once you loose the Thrust or increase the AOA you Can INcrease G but you will lose your sustained (ALPHA: Energy) turn rate, eventually your G loading will drop back down and Enter into a stall condition. Due to the drag and AOA overcomeing the Thrust.

EAch airframe design is unique in what it can and cant do. Guys like myself in the Test Community write the manuals and provide the information before any ops pilot steps to the Jet. Eventually through time both the test and operational community evaluate and modify this information on a yearly basis. It takes a great deal of time and flight hours to understand a jet and its capabilities. I have ofton found myself on both sides of the scope, doing things not possible in the pub, and then other things that is mentioned in the pub.

What is written in the pubs is a "nominal" guide a baseline to follow when operating the jet. This stuff is best used to keep you out of departures and breaking the airframe. Some things are numbed down to ensure that the aircraft is going to survive its expected service life.


Stores configuration has a lot to do with this. Also some Flyby wire and primitive flight control computers limit this.

In the Mig 29 with 4 Missile on a pylon your limited to 6 1/4 g's,
Once the Mig 29 punches off the 2 R-77's it can then achieve an higher AOA, and sustaned G Loading with 2 out board r-27's

one of the major benifits in the Russian fighter designs is that they have gauges that display Alpha and G loading.

Their are many factors to consider.

The F15 For example can sustain G's with 2 full gas bags. But you will bust the Jet. It is mentioned in the pubs to dump fuel or jettison the Tanks when entering into a BFM turning fight.

The F16 on the other hand has a Stores config switch that limits the G loading available to the pilot.

So you see. Their is allot to consider. AS a pilot you keep track of all this stuff and read your instruments and evaluate what you can and cant do as you fly. Sometimes you have to make considerations.

If i turn with this guy at a specified rate, its going to cost me X amount of gas. if i turn fight this guy, can i do it with out jettitsoning my gbu's...do i fight this guy or do i duck out of the fight and find another area to press in from.

Lots of tactical and airframe planning happens up there. Yhis is what seperates a heavy driver from a Fighter pilot.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

well as you can see by my question I understand all that(bleeding off speed etc.).I guess I'm just wanting to get more specific info as to what sustaind Gs various planes can develope.

assumming sea level and no weapons 50% fuel, do these numbers even come close to sustained G capability?

F-4E______________5.3 sustained
F-14A_____________4.5
F-14D_____________4.8
F-15A/C___________5.1
F-16C block30/42___4.9
F-16C block 50/60__5.5
F/A-18C___________4.8
MiG-29A/C_________5.6 Mudd you said 6¼ with 4 missles so I'm guessing this is wrong.
SU-27_____________5.6

any of this sound even close?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on Dec 13 2003 9:29 PM

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Ambient Temp is another thing your missing to go with your 1 atmosphere conditions.

Those numbers are sustained G at best Corner speed/Radius. the higher the G the Higher the speed and turn radius.

I ofton could sit inside a student at 320 knots and around 4-6 G,s while he was on the burner trying to maintain 9G's with his turn getting wider and faster, The whole time sitting comfortably in the WEZ...

When you speak sustained G you have to specify which factor, Fastest turn vs tightest turn.

In that you have MAX g capable to consider as well.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Boomer watch my mig29 vs F16 Video. In that im flying a cool and comfortable 200-340 knot fight, while that viper is hauling ass at 550 + knots, i consistently turn inside him and keep him to where he cant use a verticle advantage. I drag him to the deck, and work him with yoyo's and rate turn pie sliceing techniques to stay inside him.


It is really humorous to do this to a guy, but when your slow, you also take risks of catching his wingmans missile, as you are well under the no escape zone in a Ir engagement. This is where you see me kill his wingman early and offset crank a notch quick to break the 2 bandits lock, and change my aspect to force him to overshoot, I then stay under his negative pushover and he makes a clean miss with the guns, now that i have him overshoot into a defensive posture, i can own the fight while he tries to maintain a speed advantage. it would have worked if he took it verticle, and could of came over the top and got me. But it didnt happan and we fought the horizontal turn fight.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Another example to examine sustained G that I found was the AoA tests with the Su-33/27, especially when the measurements were visual on the bottom of the screen.


Mudd, you have worked on F-22 improvements. Would you say it's the "Holy Grail" of airframes in terms of sustained G and energy conservation?
That's what I always hear.

yeah I saw the video before, and I understand those tactics. My sim FMs have been called quite good, but I want to make them as realistic as possible and that's hard to do when you've only been in an airplane 1 time in your whole life lol, so I glean and glean all I can find and TRY to make something worthwhile and realistic enough that it becomes challenging and fun at the same time, but I dont have a personal referance base to draw from.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Another example to examine sustained G that I found was the AoA tests with the Su-33/27, especially when the measurements were visual on the bottom of the screen.


Mudd, you have worked on F-22 improvements. Would you say it's the "Holy Grail" of airframes in terms of sustained G and energy conservation?
That's what I always hear.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

My understandings are this. We have the technology and knowledge to make extremely manueverable vehicles. the one weakness any more is the Flesh that has to ride in it.

I also understand that the technology is there to prevent us from "requiring that human to be personaly engaged" the manueverability that is being designed into the raptor and JSF is not for a prime modus operandi of running around the battlefield and conducting a turning fight. That ability is only there when technology fails, your all alone and tactically dicked up in a big way.

We have not had a major a2a duel since bosnia. and only then was it becasue ofthe offensive platforms failure to decapacitate the target. But it ended at the merge, and luckily those guys are still alive to talk about it today.

I would not expect much more investment in manueverability in piloted aircraft. We have a hard enough time keeping pilots physically aware of everything around them. we do not have the technology in place to limit the effects of acceleration, inertia and gravity. I for one do not want to be wearing a specialised Pressure Suit for flying in a 25 G enviroment. Were talking hermerages and broken bones here.

the advancements today are soley focused on the tactical tools and standoff engagement platforms.




"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader