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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 12:56 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... usa_mccain<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 14:49 
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Thats not a bloody quote. It will be a cold day in Hades when I figure out how to post a news paper article.<img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle>

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 15:02 
Just right click while you're looking at the article, highlight all the text, click save.

Come to WT, start your topic, right click, and hit paste.

PS...the link doesn't work, lol

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 15:04 
Tracked the article down. It's more McCain tinkering. We are lucky indeed that idiot didn't win the nomination in 2000. The F-22 would have been long since cancelled were that the case.

"Congress Should Rethink Lockheed Plane, McCain Says (Update1)
April 11 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Congress should consider canceling Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F/A-22 fighter airplane to help pay for needed troop increases in Iraq, Senator John McCain said.

``We may have to cancel this airplane that's going to cost between $250 million and $300 million a copy,'' McCain, the No. 2 Republican on the armed services committee, said on NBC's `Meet the Press.'

The F/A-22, conceived during the Reagan administration to counter Soviet MiG jets, is to replace the F-15C as the top U.S. air-to-air fighter. The $257 million plane, the most expensive ever, is being tested by the Pentagon to determine whether it should proceed into full production.

McCain, of Arizona, said President George W. Bush should send more troops to Iraq after more than 40 Americans were killed there last week. Increasing the number of soldiers and Marines will cost money and widen the federal deficit, he said, making it necessary to cut other Pentagon expenditures.

``We've got to change the way that we do business and put priority where it belongs, and that is making sure that we succeed in Iraq'' McCain said.

U.S. Senator Pat Roberts said on CBS's `Face the Nation' he has ``a problem'' with sending in more troops.

``It isn't so much how many troops, but the troops that are trained to do the job in the urban warfare and the asymmetrical warfare used by the terrorists,'' said Roberts, a Kansas Republican. ``I think there's been a suggestion by Senator McCain to simply cancel the F-22 and put more troops in there.''

Additional Troops

Additional troops would require making ``tough choices,'' McCain said on `Meet the Press.'

``During the Vietnam War, they accused Lyndon Johnson of employing a strategy of guns and butter,'' McCain said. ``Well, now we're employing the strategy of guns and pork. Look at the highway bill that had 3,000 pork-barrel projects on it.''

The F/A-22 program constitutes less than 5 percent of Lockheed's earnings, J.P. Morgan Securities Inc. analyst Joseph Nadol has said. Jeff Adams, a spokesman for Lockheed, didn't return calls to his office seeking comment.

Congress's research arm, the General Accounting Office, said last month the U.S. Air Force had failed to provide a thorough, post-Cold War rationale for why the F/A-22 should proceed into full production.



To contact the reporter on this story:
Neil Roland in Washington at nroland@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor of this story:
Robin Meszoly at rmeszoly@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: April 11, 2004 16:27 EDT"


"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 15:06 
"Congress's research arm, the General Accounting Office, said last month the U.S. Air Force had failed to provide a thorough, post-Cold War rationale for why the F/A-22 should proceed into full production."

Here you go idiots...here's a good reason:

THE F-15C IS FUCKING WORN OUT OK????

MORONS.


"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 19:47 
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Joined: 06 Oct 2002, 19:55
Posts: 695
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Why scrap the program if production models have already been delivered for training? Why not back away from the F-35 instead??

--Raven

"'When it comes to my turn, will you want me to go?' 'For democracy, any man would give his only begotten son.'"


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 20:03 
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No McCain is not a member of the Hornet mafia...

I think he is making a point more than anything...The point is, that Bush is looking more and more like Richard Nixon everyday, with his "Vietnamization" approach to Iraq...Reagan feared Iran defeating Iraq for good reason...Now that fear just may come through due to other means...Iraq will take a long long time to stablize...It will take a commitment from this administration and the next 3 to prevent Iraq from becomming a larger problem than the Iran revolution of 1979 ever thought have being...

Its more than just making them a Democracy...We have to understand why democracy fails with these people to begin with...

We need fresh fighters to replace the F-15C...Without air dominance our military doctrine does not work...


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 20:50 
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McCains comments are not stupid.

The fact is, we have some serious budgetary problems and the money needs to come from somehwhere...

Raptor is not needed. Despite how cool or valuable it could be...Today.

Get the troops and systems that are actually fighting a war the resources they need.

Raptor can sit on the back burner, and hold the orders.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2004, 21:44 
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BTW...I would be an advocate of a "Super Eagle" variant...The F-15 tooling is intact, and I still believe that aircraft has the growth potential to be dominating, as it is now...Just need fresh mounts as all...Why not incorporate stealth features into the F-15 as we did the F-18E/F...Is that not an option, if not a viable compromise to our current delema?



Edited by - chadrewsky on Apr 11 2004 8:45 PM


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 12:46 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
BTW...I would be an advocate of a "Super Eagle" variant...The F-15 tooling is intact, and I still believe that aircraft has the growth potential to be dominating, as it is now...Just need fresh mounts as all...Why not incorporate stealth features into the F-15 as we did the F-18E/F...Is that not an option, if not a viable compromise to our current delema?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I'm thinking that Sen. McCain really, really wants his way on the tanker lease thing so he's added the tactic of attacking a sacred cow to his repetoire as a bargaining chip. Oh well, give him what he wants even though he's a spoiled brat and hasn't got the votes. He's worn me down. In his zeal to protect the taxpayers from the financial catastrophe of an extra $4 billion of cost due to leasing tankers, he is willing and able to threaten the write off $30 billion of taxpayers investment. It's just one of those "tough choices" we have to make, eh Senator. It is very important to keep Senator "Maverick" McCain content.

Who is the tall, dark stranger there?
Maverick is the name.
Ridin' the trail to who knows where,
Luck is his companion,
Gamblin' is his game.
Smooth as the handle on a gun.
Maverick is the name.
Wild as the wind in Oregon,
Blowin' up a canyon,
Easier to tame.


Chad, new production F-15's will have a fly-away cost about 75% of F-22's, by my quick and dirty estimate. If new and updated features are added, which require some engineering integration/test, then they will be 100% of F-22 cost, with 90% of the capability. "Adding" stealth to F-15's will not be cost effective or tactically effective. Money is better spent on weapons and sensors. We have already established they are OK as-is for the current tasks anyway. Let's not waste any more time and treasure on uneeded performance. Since we are substantially finished with the useless task of F-22 development, I can applaud myself for a job "well done" (stick a fork in it). It is similar to that show "The Producers" where the financial principals are counting on the show to close in one night. I'm looking forward to the next "Springtime for Hitler" project to start. If there is a consensus about freeing-up money for the prosecution of the war, I can support that. It sure beats the alternative of a new "Producers". However, I must insist on something in writing that dedicates the savings to that purpose. We need to clamp down on all those pork projects (of course, no one will admit the things he supports are pork or the other guy's isn't). Who am I kidding. That is impossible.

Let me be bold by proposing a kind of obsolescent arms race. In order to spread the pain, I propose that there should be a four year moratoriam on all new aircraft procurement. Retire all those tail numbers. Substantial money will be wasted, cancelling multi-year procurement of C-17, C-130, F-18 etc., but it will be a net gain. Cancel all aircraft programs on the drawing board and in development (i.e. F-22, V-22, F-35, KC-767, MMA, UCAV's). They will not be available to help win this conflict, and so they are expendable. Task industry to provide the entire "wish list" of consumables and spares for four years of intense combat with existing aircraft types. In order to compensate for the probable attrition, commence refurbishment production lines for existing aircraft models, (all tactical types like F-18, F-15 & F-16, A-10, A-7, F-4, F-111 but also CH-46, CH47, CH-53) with little consideration given to long life extension. Move the tin. Stand down all strategic assets (bombers, missiles and nukes) and mothball them. Cancell anti ballistic missile research and deployment. Stop NASA efforts for space exploration. These efforts add nothing to answering the here and now threats to The Republic and its citizens. The aircraft rehab production lines would be set-up in the recently vacated facilities of new aircraft production. AF Plant 6 in Marietta (which was good enough for B-29 production) will be available as soon as the F-22 & C-130 tools can be moved to the scrapyard. That is apparently where they belong. The major expense will be the massive ramp-up of production of tactically useful air to surface smart weapons, with the intent on expending them as fast as they're made. The launch "platform" is not very critical when air dominance is a foregone conclusion. We will have many varied and expendable "platforms". The only thing we should spend many billions of $$$ on is a rush program to perfect the methods of constant surveillence, target recognition and real-time destruction. Then...we can methodically kill our enemies and demolish their equipment from relative safety until everone gets so sick and tired of the violence they are willing to cry uncle for 50 years or so. It's a bold proposal, but it certainly will stand the "transformational" test. How about it, Rummy?

In historical context, both the F-15 and the A-10 wouldn't stand a chance in the current environment. I have no idea what this chaos will bring, but the guys at the pointy end of the spear are likely to get screwed.



Edited by - a10stress on Apr 12 2004 12:36 PM

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 14:34 
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Why would updating the F-15 be any more of an endeavor than what the Navy did with the F-18? Make no mistake, I feel we need the F-22...However, when our soldiers on the ground in Iraq are in short supply of kevlar, do we need it right now??? The Navy had to save the future of Naval Aviation, by betting the farm on the F-18E/F...As ludicrous is this sounds, right now...the only so called advanced tactical aircraft program proceeding is the F-18E/F...I would rather save face and atleast have an upgraded F-15K vice not getting the F-22 and being stuck with the F-18E/F in USAF service....Whats the flyaway cost of a F-15K btw? I am betting it is considerably less than a F-22. Tomcats are long gone...no way to ressurect that production line...But the F-15 is still here, and still an option...Just my 2 cents, and with the EW warefare tactics within our current arsenal is stealth really the silver bullet people claim it is...Glenn has written several eloquent pieces on this forum negating how important radar really is when the currect tactics are employed...

Disagree with Senator McCain all you want....But the man shrugged off his "spoiled brat" lable along time ago when he endured what he did in Hanoi...I don't care what his current agenda is, he will always have my respect...







Edited by - chadrewsky on Apr 12 2004 1:42 PM


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 15:46 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Get the troops and systems that are actually fighting a war the resources they need.

Raptor can sit on the back burner, and hold the orders.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

You got that right. Iraq is going to Hell in a handbasket this month. US is having a helluva of a time just keeping LOCs open. Over 70 GIs KIAed in April alone.

That Apache shotdown was on a mission to protect a convoy.

CENTCOM has requested another 10,000 troops.

Jack


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 15:57 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Why would updating the F-15 be any more of an endeavor than what the Navy did with the F-18?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I don't understand. Any substantial rework of the F-15 along the lines of F-18E would not be a good comparison to building F-22's. The F-18E was a new airplane from stem to stern, a big effort. It cost 98% of what a clean sheet of paper design would have. Heck, it was a clean sheet of paper design with a resemblance to the F-18C. Are you suggesting we should spend another $10-15 billion to develop an F-15 variant that costs about 85% of the F-22 (flyaway) and it will be ready in 2015? OK, we (the industry) can do it. I know you're not a nut. It must be me. Some member of Congress will probably endorse it. I can hear somebody humming "Springtime for Hitler" again. I don't know which end is up anymore. Just tell me what you want. How about we engineer down the F-22 capability and make that cheaper? No, why not do the F-14E? Yeah, that's the ticket. I just thought we were looking for economy with a simple rework of old jets. What are you pushing for? I'm developing a theory. If you don't build anything, your ahead of the game.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 16:10 
You're sounding a littly panicky about Iraq EZ, and i just don't agree with you.

The cockroaches have come out of hiding, all at once...and have given us a golden opportunity to kill them...all at once.

You would prefere a low intensity guerilla campaign that lasted years and whose ranks were therefore constant over a tet-like situation where we have a real opportunity to make a dent in their numbers?

Not me. I have a few sources over there, and they tell me that we're killing bad guys at a very brisk clip in the last week. Much faster than before.

I prefer a standup fight, and a standup fight is exactly what we've got on our hands. I say good for us.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 17:29 
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First I will address the engineering issue stress...I am not an engineer. I am merely playing devil's advocate here. However; The F-15 still has growth potential...Why not exploit it? The F-15K is more than a match for any tactical fighter in service today, and the concievable future...The F-15K is not a radical variant of the F-15 but an improvement...You mentioned the F-14E...Hell yes, that plane could dominate well into the concievable future...The F-18E/F is a new plane, I agree with you 100% it in fact has less than 20% commonality with the F-18C...But it was sold as a variant of the F-18 lineage, and was sold as an economical move (it sure was wasn't it?)...In theory...The point is our latest generation of aircraft were designed so well, that they still 3 decades later...are reasonably state of the art when compared to their foreign contemporaries...Only when they are compared to advanced US designs, are they deemed "obsolete" The issue is airframe life, not the inherrent design of the airframe itself...

Westmoreland bragged up body counts in Vietnam...Mathematicaly we should have eliminated the VC by 1967 as per MacNamara's quantum mathematical approach to eradicating the enemy...Tet was a huge suprise. Iraq is a no win situation, not because we cannot defeat the enemy, but because we cannot win the "hearts & minds" of the enemey...We will give them democracy, and they will turn it into anarchy untill a radical theocracy rises, and in their eyes saves the day...The problem with Iraq is not that it lacks a military soultion, but it lacks a cultural solution...


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 19:08 
This may come as a shock to some of you, but the overwhelming majority of Iraqis are non-violent, and welcome the chance at democracy.

This is what i'm told.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 20:00 
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Yep they are like any other human on the planent by and large...Its the isolated bombings from the fanatics that concern me, and not allowing those fanatics to bring down a populus wanting change...Most Iranians remember the reforms under a pro-US leadership...and wish they where still in effect...The news media likes to concentrate on the radicals burning flags and driving car bombs vice the ones fighting for freedom...Liken the Iraqi police..


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 20:15 
So all we can do is kill them when they give us the chance, which we are.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 21:53 
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Joined: 06 Oct 2002, 19:55
Posts: 695
Location: Las Vegas
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The news media likes to concentrate on the radicals burning flags and driving car bombs vice the ones fighting for freedom...Liken the Iraqi police..
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

He's got a point. Yeah, it's rough over there, but the news is showing what gets ratings. And face it, we all have some tinge of a morbid fascination about guerilla/terrorist acts. You don't want to see it, but you watch anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This may come as a shock to some of you, but the overwhelming majority of Iraqis are non-violent, and welcome the chance at democracy.

This is what i'm told.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Yup...this coupled with the above statement...think about it. No need to cancel anything. Delay for a SHORT term, maybe...just to get armor over there...but we ARE winning, albeit at a slower rate than most of us are used to.

--Raven


"'When it comes to my turn, will you want me to go?' 'For democracy, any man would give his only begotten son.'"


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2004, 23:39 
When i was a wee little kid i used to watch the Vietnam news on TV with my dad.
It's one of my very first memories actually. I remember seeing the fall of Saigan on TV when i was like 6.

This is a LOT faster than what i grew up with.

This is NOT, repeat NOT a nationwide insurgency. It is in fact highly localized to a few locations, and some of those locations have already been quelled and or retaken. This 'insurgency' has been going on for a matter of a couple weeks...you'd think we were into the 5th year of Vietnam listening to some of the idiots out there.

The actual situation is so vastly different than what is being portrayed on the TV that one has to wonder why. To incite panic? To influence the American sheeple?

Who knows.

If we need more troops, we need more troops. Everyone knows that the Prez is trying to do this without breaking the bank because every dime he spends on defense gets the left howling how he's ignoring all the wonderful socail welfare programs they so love.
2 Bdes are probably going to be deployed over there now, but it won't be seen as the US doing what's neccesary to win the day, it will be more "Administration mistakes and the Administration wasting money". As if any of us have crystal balls.

If anyone in the Admin is to blame it's Rumsfeld and his 'light' mafia who have not been rotating Abrams into Iraq with the units which is what made the LOCs vulnerable to begin with(you'd think RumNamara would've learned his lesson with the LOC problems during the war, but i guess not).

And Senator McCain can suck my dick. He needs to stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution. It's amazing, our wonderful government is it's own worse enemy.

There's a war going on, a war that extends far beyond the borders of Iraq or Afdirtistan. A war that will have tremendous impact on the shape of the world for the balance of our lifetimes, and the Democrats AND Republicans need to get onboard and shut the fuck up.

We cannot afford to lose this time, there can be no backing out. We MUST stay the course.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2004, 10:27 
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Joined: 06 Oct 2002, 19:55
Posts: 695
Location: Las Vegas
My dad and I were discussing this last night, and determined a few things.

1) Like we have mentioned, the media is comparing this to Vietnam, and not portraying in a relaistic light. The fact of the matter is this is the kind of battle that we've never seen before, and we will adapt to it.

2) The bleeding hearts are part of our problem. Iraqis do have access to some media, and I am sure they see how divided this country is on the war. These insurgencies, although not their MAIN objectives, are being used to play both sides against the middle. It's kind of like a kid, that gets grounded by his dad, but knows his mom doesn't agree. So he tries to brown nose mom a bit to get off easy (do you guys follow that analogy?)

3) We need more troops and equipment in there. The more that we can through at each rebellion, the quicker we stop them.

--Raven

"'When it comes to my turn, will you want me to go?' 'For democracy, any man would give his only begotten son.'"


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2004, 10:39 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
First I will address the engineering issue stress...I am not an engineer. I am merely playing devil's advocate here. However; The F-15 still has growth potential...Why not exploit it? The F-15K is more than a match for any tactical fighter in service today, and the concievable future...The F-15K is not a radical variant of the F-15 but an improvement...You mentioned the F-14E...Hell yes, that plane could dominate well into the concievable future...The F-18E/F is a new plane, I agree with you 100% it in fact has less than 20% commonality with the F-18C...But it was sold as a variant of the F-18 lineage, and was sold as an economical move (it sure was wasn't it?)...In theory...The point is our latest generation of aircraft were designed so well, that they still 3 decades later...are reasonably state of the art when compared to their foreign contemporaries...Only when they are compared to advanced US designs, are they deemed "obsolete" The issue is airframe life, not the inherrent design of the airframe itself...

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


I'm sorry. I am just getting my mind right. I like the concept of "good enough" as compared to "dominating". It is a lot easier to deliver a "good enough" machine. A "dominating" one takes a lot more time, money and pain to achieve. If it's not worth it, then so be it.
And about the airframe life, Am I right in assuming you are referring to "fatigue" life? My associates and I can keep any clunker in the sky with enough repairs and inspections. The airframe life is defined by how far you're willing to go economically. We are up to our necks dealing with crack and corrosion problems on every inventory airframe. We can fix them but there comes a time when a shiny new jet looks very good to the tired mechanics and structural engineers.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2004, 14:12 
" We can fix them but there comes a time when a shiny new jet looks very good to the tired mechanics and structural engineers."

I would submit the F-15 has reached that point.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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