WT Forums

So tell me, when you face an ACAV for the first time, and it has no pilot, and beats your ass......what will you say then?

We are getting to a point where computers are removing the man from the loop. the damned things already fly the plane for the stick actuation types.

<b>"You can have the greatest gun known to mankind, complete with GPS guided bullets, carried by brick, and he wouldn't stand a chance against a well trained man with a .22LR pistol. Training is the key."</b>

So you're telling me that Iraqi insurgents are as well trained as US troops?

Cause there are a LOT of dead US troops that have died to quite poorly trained Iraqis.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

PS: If the F-22 had rotated it's wings 90 degrees it very much looks like he had an AIM-9X shot.

Testing, sorry

Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My invectives were dirceted at Patriot because frankly i dont feel a need to take lip from a poster with 46 posts. I dont care if he's Jesus Christ returned himself.



<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

So there is no respect for the BTDT's? Your saying what you learned or gleaned from the internet can make up for years of being in the loop, training on new weapons systems, getting TS briefings, and actually flying these jets? Because if it is I once again call BS.

You are right you are a novice however you are not as informed as you think you are. Do you really think Mudd, Stress and the others tell you everthing? They can't and neither can I. Surely you have had the briefings on what can never be discussed?

You would be amazed at the accomplishments of Patriot. I now know for a fact he his the real deal and has a ton combat experience. I would be honored to shake his hand and thank him for his more than 35yrs of service.

Snipe you seriously need to realize no matter what info you obtain via the net you cannot know as much about these matters as a real life been there done that pilot. Yes they are cocky and yet they are in the know. Even Muddy is a cocky SOB but I like him just the same.

Once again I would ask you rethink your position and admit you were wrong.

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

Snipe,

You know I always got your back Bro, but Fender is right and I think a "Stance Changing " here would be a good move towards Patriot man.

His screen name has "meaning here" and he is that a "Patriot".

I'd love to shake his Hand too.

I remember you telling me before "Admitting your wrong takes a real man" I know you are one so lets get this whole thing behind us on this topic and Welcome and try to "Absorb" what Patriot has to offer.


TOP (Goose)

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

<b>So there is no respect for the BTDT's?</b>

Who disrespected Patriot? I merely told him to tone it down precisely because he disrespected me, not the other way around.

<b>You would be amazed at the accomplishments of Patriot. I now know for a fact he his the real deal and has a ton combat experience. I would be honored to shake his hand and thank him for his more than 35yrs of service.</b>

Got news for ya. If he ran his mouth like that the first time i met him in person we'd both be adding to our combat experience while rolling around on the floor.

<b>Snipe you seriously need to realize no matter what info you obtain via the net you cannot know as much about these matters as a real life been there done that pilot. Yes they are cocky and yet they are in the know. Even Muddy is a cocky SOB but I like him just the same.</b>

Type 7 has never gotten cocky with me. Only pilot on this board that has ever gotten cocky with me is mudd, and it's because we're personal friends that it is allowed.

Sorry dude, "Admin" means the other posters have to respect the title(especially the ones with 46 posts). He can tell me i'm an idiot without going into a diatribe of profanity. It's been done many times by many posters. This applies fully to yourself and Dice as well. Posters are not allowed to wantonly insult you two either. ESPECIALLY not new posters.

<b>Once again I would ask you rethink your position and admit you were wrong.</b>

Wrong about what precisely?

That machines can do a mans job as well as a man depending on the level of current technology and the job in question?

Or that there is more to success in combat than training?

Sorry, no can do Joe-Boo(the little voo-doo doll in the movie major league).

Neither is true.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

What exactly is it that i'm 'wrong' about goose?

Please........do tell.

As far as patriot he could be a great guy, but he's also a pottymouth, and pottymouths get a lot of negative attention from authority types.

Ask me how i know.

I ask nothing more than i do. I've been debating Boomer for 4 pages and despite the fact that he's never been any closer to an air assault a than a Tom Clancy game i have refrained from telling him he is a fucking idiot.

If it's good for the Snipe, it's good for the Gander.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

And let's get back into the experts post.

He said:

<b>"It's ALWAYS the better pilot's fight."</b>

And i say what if i surprise you from behind and kill you before you ever even know im there(like has historically happened in the majority of real A2A kills)?

You could be 100x the pilot i am....if you never know you're being shot at until you're sitting on a cloud with St Peter it doesnt much matter, does it?

And if it is ALWAYS the better pilots fight, why are there so many dead multiple aces?

Because luck is a fickle bitch, that's why.

It seems to me Sir, that what cost that Raptor pilot is a lack of FAMILIARITY with his aircraft, NOT any lack of training or experience(if he's sitting in an F-22 at all odds are he is already a highly experienced and highly trained veteran pilot to begin with).

That same lack of familiarity let M60s dominate M1s in REFORGER right after the M1 was fielded, despite equal crew skill levels AND a far superior tank.

Of course i am sure an expert such as yourself(and the others here trying to shut me up) has that all figured out.

If experience/training is SO OVERWHELMINGLY OVERRIDINGLY IMPORTANT perhaps someone here can explain to me how Kido Butai lost the battle of midway.

<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

Perhaps while they're at it they can also explain why we're not still a British colony, or how a bunch of Kentucky Volunteers wiped out a whole professional british army at the Battle of New Orleans.

I dont care if you're flying F-22s or sniping gooks with an M-40, there is a LOT more to being an effective combat soldier than mere training.

IMO NOTHING is more important than MOTIVATION.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

Ice Pirate: <b>OK this is really screwy. I didn't realize the post on this thread were all out of order and Catawhompus. I just found your last, at least I think it was your last, post Snipe. No Worries. I think we'er both back on the same page.</b>

Yeah, no idea what happened with the post ordering. It was most bizarre, but seems to be fixed now.

PS, glad YOU at least see what i'm saying.

Hell a person can be Manfred Von Richtoven, but when their luck runs out, thier luck runs out. And then they die- Just like Richtoven.

I don't care how good a person is. We all have bad days.

Training is great, but it is but ONE piece of the puzzle. Motivation, luck, tactics, and (increasingly)hardware all play a huge role in the equation.

Anyone that dismisses those FACTS is the one who IMO has got it all wrong.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

<b>The British Royal Armies antics with the Zulus are probably a better example.</b>

Actually that observation is the opposite of the point i was making. The battle of Rourkes Drift(the battle portrayed in the movie) would be an example of qualitative superiority, but the larger battle that saw the entire British expeditionary force get WIPED OUT TO A MAN- the infamous Battle of Isandlwah goes toward the example i was talking about, which is of course best expressed by the old adage, "Quantity has a quality all on it's own".

Despite FAR greater training, far greater firepower, and far greater tactical organization the entire British contingent was wiped out.

The 2d Anglo-Afghan war is another perfect example of what i'm talking about.

<b><i>"When you find yourself wounded on afghanistans plains,
and when the women come to cut up what of you remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains.
And go to your god like a soldier."
~Kipling</i></b>

Stalingrad too.

--------

<b>The Russians had arguably the best tank of the war in the T-34, and many more of them. Stalin was a prick, but at least he had the good sense to listen to the Generals he did not purge.</b>

It was arguably the best precisely because they built SO MANY. 1 v 1 it was absolutely no match for a Tiger I/II or Panther, even with a somewhat better crew.

<b>Yeah, but Hitler was an idiot. The “Kick the door in & the whole rotten structure will fall” attitude was stupid. The Wermacht was hamstrung by Htilers ineptness as a leader. We have had Eastern Front discussions on here before, so I will leave it at that. Stalin had his flag over Berlin when it was said and done.</b>

Stalin did as much to hamper the Reds as Hitler did to hamper the Germans....IMO.(This is certainly a matter worthy of more debate).

<b>But we want the best people in the best equipment</b>

Yep...because sometimes being better trained just isn't enough.

<b>and when/if parity is achieved from a weapons system standpoint our people will make the difference, just like they have had since the colonial Army & Navy.</b>

Our people, tactics, logistics, and luck, and perhaps more important than any of it.......MOTIVATION.

Without motivation to engage the enemy or fire his weapon the most well trained troop in the world is utterly useless.


<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

you know all this shit getting stirred here is begining to stink. Lets all thank God the f-22 got it in training so things are learned.

Im sure it's not the last time an F-22 will bite the bullet in DACT or ACM training.

As for the 'shit stinking' i am glad we have such an experienced new poster here, and that he is a true expert in his art(no sarcasm intended), but the fact is there's more to a great warrior than training.

I'm not even sure what comment exactly set Mr.Patriot off...but 'tis not a good idea to go off like that on the admin of any board where one has a mere 46 posts, especially when the admin in question doesnt know him from a hole in the ground.

I've banned a lot of people for a lot less(to the sound of cheers from the gallery, i might add).

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

about the weirdness of the posting order. I notice that the time stamps are now in military style 24hour format, could that have screwed it up? When was that change made?

A 45 has a muzzle.
A 9mm has a bullet vent.

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

I have no idea Boomer. If i made the change i did it without knowing it.

At least the problem corrected itself pretty quickly.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

I still say the USAF and USMC should buy the Super Hornet. For the F-15A/C's that won't be able to be replaced by the F-22, the USAF placing a serious order for F/A-18E's would be far better than any mod program for the elderly remaining F-15A/C's plus it would give them a much wider variety of roles to perform such as A/G, and being able to bring 10 AAM's per plane would be a great supplement to the F-22 fleet.

Of course the USAF and USMC both need the EA-18G Growler and I think the Marines should buy 2-4 squads of F/A-18F's just to retain their FAC(A) that suits thier role so well.

Plus, the more Super Hornets we buy, the cheaper they get and the easier they become to export (which in turns lowers the costs again!)

LOL, one can of worms at a time, PLEASE!


<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

So, what will the excuse or party-line be when an unmanned vehicle, completely of its own programming, pulls a Deep Blue and consistently whacks its human opponents with little effort?

Crushed under his own mental block...

We're gonna find out eventually.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

This is just a time hack check...

OK, it's still Pacific time, just mil. Thought maybe it'd gone Zulu on us, too.

The Second Amendment: America's original homeland security.
Ya just can’t take life too seriously, because you aren’t going to get out of it alive anyway.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - 30mike-mike on Apr 07 2006 04:56

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

_________________
????

More on that Raptor v Hornet fight from a pilot at strategypage:

The Rest of the Story 4/12/2006 7:19:34 PM
THIS JUST IN....
...

For those of you who trust me, trust me when I say this comes from an inside source that KNOWS what he's talking about. I won't reveal ID'ing information as I'm using it without explicitly asking permission and I want to protect him just in case.

Here is the response, including his quote of something else that has been circulating regarding this engagement. The one question I have remaining is why the mis-match between his stated "3,000 foot 300 knot setup" and the quoted "9000' LAB, 300 knots." Overall, I think this pretty much says it all. To answer someone's question, uhmm, no, I *don't* think much about an F-18 getting a gun shot on an F-22--certainly not any more.

Displacedjim
--------------------

Far as Xxxxxx and I could tell it’s the only Hornet gun shot of a Raptor in existence. It was a 27th pilot (but I won’t tell who, not Xxxxxx or I). He was flying a 3,000 foot 300 knot setup against a demo configured super hornet (betting you won’t see the same from a combat configured jet – just a guess). Why they did that and how he ended up there is beyond me – but he did – I’m sure he could have avoided it (unless there was some gross mismatch I don’t know about – like fuel weight).

On the 2nd part – it was a gross violation of the ROE (that part I heard about of course), pass pretty close to the Raptor as the pictures tell the story, it was not a 135 aspect bust – just well inside the bubble, at least with 200 knots of closure and the nose in lead. Nothing like having your fangs through the floor to get a fleeting hero shot on a 130 million dollar jet eh? Pretty dumb move on his part – lucky he missed with his 50 million dollar golden BB. (or however much a super hornet costs these days – at least we know it’s less than a Raptor)…

Yyyyyy

PS – here’s a blurb we sent out a while back – this did circulate all the way through the navy – go figure, even had to answer to guys up on the hill asking questions – sometimes I really miss the Eagle jet…

"The Navy rumors are all false. We’ve flown with them on numerous occasions and they have had as much luck seeing the Raptor as a blind man. The only way we can pay them back for Red Air is with BFM because they can’t find us on BVR setups. Our standard deal with them is “you be our ACT/ACM red air and we’ll throw you a BFM bone every now and then.”

"The attached photos are being sent out across the Navy. They are the first and only shots of a Raptor getting gunned by a Super Hornet. It was a demo-configured E/F flying against XXXXXX. The setup was 9000’ LAB, 300 knots “fights on.” I don’t know how XXXXX ended up in front of the guy but he did get gunned…and nearly speared as well. Note the range, aspect and closure of the shot. FYI – the bubble is 1000’!"

--------------------------------------

BTW, all the pix are a sequence shot of the same engagement, ie the same raptor is in all the pix.

So it would be "1-0", although apparently in BVR the score is a couple hundred to nothing in favor of the raptor.

LOL.

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboar ... -33894.asp

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

In BVR nothing is going to touch the Raptor for a long time. I dont know for sure what "demo configured" means but the Hornets ( old and new ) are 9G rated aircraft but they are restricted to 7.5G for fatigue reasons and apparently are now being offered for overseas sales with the 9G option available.

This was a response I gave to an Email enquiry about those pics when they were posted over at SimHQ

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Yeah I saw those pics about a half a week or so ago at the A-10 sight ( F-18F btw, Es are used more as strikers). Super Hornets are being used heavily against the Raptor in DACM becaue it's the only fighter that has some stealth AND can pull ridiculous DPS. I see there are still a LOT of Falcon4 posers over at SimHQ. The F-14 "pilot" didnt know what the X over the guns was?? "yeah theres no vapor from the Raptor so he must be cruising", when I lived in Licking I saw litterally DOZENS of days where Hornets and Eagles pulled very high Gs with no "vapor trail" over their surfaces.

Check out the HUD symbology, Raptor is in a dive, was probobly looping over the SH and just starting to come back down the other side. SH was running out of speed ( 179kts)( easy for Hornets unfortunatly ) at the top of the loop and was just keeping the Raptor locked-up as only the Hornets and Fulcrums can do at such low speeds. "just cruising" "no control deflection" first off Raptor is unstable in pitch like Falcon so it doesnt take much deflection to make a hard pull, add in the thrust vectoring and you wont see much out of Raptor as far as visual cues, BUT in that pic you can clearly see his automatic leading edge flaps deflected down PLUS he is pulling hard enough to get a MAJOR sun glint off the elevators which are greatly obscured by the outward cant of the Raptors verticle stabilisers. Bones is the only guy over there that I really felt was legit.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Anybody want to comment about what "fangs in the floor" means?

A 45 has a muzzle.
A 9mm has a bullet vent.

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomer I have no clue what fangs in the floor means however I assume a demo configured jet for the Navy is the same for us. Wing tip rails only, no wing tanks and no plyons. Slick and light.

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw


Edited by - Fenderstrat72 on Apr 13 2006 18:26

"Fangs in the floor" or "I grew fangs" or "I had my fangs bared", etc, etc, means that(in the opinion of the speaker) safety was put secondary to glory.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>

That makes sense, they had a 1000ft ROE limit and the Hornet got within that ( albeit at less than 200kts and out of plane ).

A 45 has a muzzle.
A 9mm has a bullet vent.

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

All trigger actuators- well, at least the aggressive ones- grow fangs sometimes. It's the nature of the beast.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/OnTheJobEnhanced.jpg" border=0>
<b>"One post, One Kill".</b>