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As Coach has said CAS has not changed just the tools used has but, when you’re trained with one set of tools (the A-10A) and someone else with another (the A-10C) and they are so widely different it seems to me to have a competition between the two may be hard to do…and keep everything even and in the spirit of Hawgsmoke

BTW: is there much of a difference between the A's and B's?

With the response this Hawgsmoke is generating, I suspect there will no issues with future competitions. This years competition will have all three A-10 versions present. Strictly speaking dumb bombs and strafe, there is no advantage of one version over the other. I would even say there are no advantages to the PGM delivery between versions. The new versions advantages lie in getting the information, not so much in the actual delivery.

As of right now, Hawgsmoke will only involve dumb bomb and strafe deliveries anyway.

Keep the faith

To Icepirate. Do you meant the difference between an A and B model Warthog? There is one B and that is a twoseater. You can visit that at Edwards afb. Or was that not the question.

A F-16 or F-15 is also from A till ....... . All that types are also on Red Flag or other Flags. It is an evalution.
The A-10 has his evalution from A to C. So maybe the Hawgsmoke get another future. We will see.
Only this time some will fly the "old" A type and the other fly the C type. Now we can really see what the C bring more than A.

This in mine vision how i see it.

Author:	Dice-man [ 20 Mar 2008, 07:52 ]
Post subject:	A-10C and Hawgsmoke
What’s going to happen to Hawgsmoke as more of the fleet is converted to the C model? What happens if the winners this year are converted to the C over the next two years? When will Hawgsmoke as we know it pass into the history books?

Author:	Ice Pirate [ 20 Mar 2008, 22:48 ]
Post subject:
Forgive my ignorance, but why would the C model conversions affect Hogsmoke in any way? If the C's can shoot or bomb with greater accuracy, couldn't they have C's compete just against other C's and have the B's compete seperatly?

Author:	Hawg166 [ 20 Mar 2008, 23:20 ]
Post subject:
It better not go away. Ifin I was a pilot I would want to keep profficient in the hands on gunnery and bombing styles without all the cyber bullshit.

Author:	Waltz41 [ 21 Mar 2008, 02:57 ]
Post subject:
I could be way off here, but does the C model really help in any way in terms of firing the gun or lobbing dumb bombs? These skills are still practiced by all Hog drivers, and I can't see the C model really helping in shooting the gun for example, it might help to see the target a little better with nice new displays, but the pilot still has to get the plane in line and get the death dot on the mark. Just my 2 cents.

Author:	Dice-man [ 21 Mar 2008, 08:01 ]
Post subject:
Without getting into details yes the A-10C does change the way the gun and dumb bombs are employed. Think about it if an A-10C pilot is trained to use WCMD/JADAMs and PGMs during say (even) 50% of their training time (plan dumb bombs 50% of the time) and all of a sudden you tell them they can’t use them during Hawgsmoke you’ve just take 50% of their training away from them. A-10A pilot trains with dumb bombs 100% of the time. How about the gun, A-10A pilots train to find and attack targets one way, A-10C pilots another, take the tools the A-10C pilots use (daily) and the A pilots would have an “unfair” advantage over the “C“ driver. I guess the A-10C pilots are trained to use dumb bombs and the gun “old school” if needed but the training and amount of time they use these methods is a lot lower then an A-10A pilot. Even an A-10A pilot who converts to the A-10C and doesn’t use the tools and Methods of an A-10A aircraft daily will lose some of the build-in (training enforced) experiences he once has/had. Heck just the way an A-10C pilot selects weapons and targets using the HOTAS would give them an advantage over an A-10A pilot when they are placed in the same battlefield situation. I think Hawgsmoke would have to break the competition into two categories (like Ice Pirate said), or some other way to even the playing field, to keep it anywhere near fair to both and that is what I was wondering if anyone was thinking about. As Coach has said CAS has not changed just the tools used has but, when you’re trained with one set of tools (the A-10A) and someone else with another (the A-10C) and they are so widely different it seems to me to have a competition between the two may be hard to do…and keep everything even and in the spirit of Hawgsmoke…FUN.

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A-10C and Hawgsmoke https://www.warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12583	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Old Chief [ 21 Mar 2008, 09:40 ]
Post subject:
Quote: As Coach has said CAS has not changed just the tools used has but, when you’re trained with one set of tools (the A-10A) and someone else with another (the A-10C) and they are so widely different it seems to me to have a competition between the two may be hard to do…and keep everything even and in the spirit of Hawgsmoke Didn't they used to call that Gunsmoke? OC

Author:	Ice Pirate [ 21 Mar 2008, 20:23 ]
Post subject:
Yeah they did Chief. As I recall, back when the 140'th, (my old Guard unit), still flew A-7D's they took World Champs at Gunsmoke. I think that was back in the late '70s or early '80s. Before the A-10 showed them how CAS was done. Since the 140'th traded their A-7s for F-16's, they now compete in Tiger Meet instead. Lawn Darts Dice, I didn't realize that the C model developed such fundamental changes in how missions are done. By the sounds of things, they'll either have to split the compitition, or come up with a handicap system like you see in golf. I hope they don't deem it too tough an obsticle to keep it going though. BTW: is there much of a difference between the A's and B's?

Author:	Dutchy [ 21 Mar 2008, 21:16 ]
Post subject:
To Icepirate. Do you meant the difference between an A and B model Warthog? There is one B and that is a twoseater. You can visit that at Edwards afb. Or was that not the question. A F-16 or F-15 is also from A till ....... . All that types are also on Red Flag or other Flags. It is an evalution. The A-10 has his evalution from A to C. So maybe the Hawgsmoke get another future. We will see. Only this time some will fly the \"old\" A type and the other fly the C type. Now we can really see what the C bring more than A. This in mine vision how i see it.

Author:	Old Chief [ 21 Mar 2008, 23:02 ]
Post subject:
Quote: BTW: is there much of a difference between the A's and B's? I think what you're asking about is refered to as a \"plus\". It's still an \"A\" model but there are quite a few enhancements, not the least of which is a color MFCD in place of the old mono-chrome monitor. It's kind of a WalMart version of the \"C\". OC

Author:	sgtgoose1 [ 22 Mar 2008, 00:43 ]
Post subject:
Gunsmoke , gunnery,bomb competition use to be against 4 different Airframes remember, F-15's, F-16's ,A-10's and either F-4's or whatever. because you had \"Gun Powder\" to figure out who would compete in\" Gun Smoke \"to Represent that Airframe. Back in the Day where ESPN covered it and \"Budweiser\" was a Sponor and the Gunsmoke after the War (GW1) The \"AFRT or Air Guard A-10's BEAT THE GIZMO' DRIVERS. So I see the differences of the discussion but we talked about it before \"Which is better in a Fight\" \"A experience \"HOT PILOT\" in a older jet? or \"A less experienced \"Pilot\" with a \"State of the Art Jet\" ? My money is on the \"1st one, \" so I think a \"Long Time Hog driverin the \"A\"\" could and would beat a \"C\" MODEL if the other pilot didn't have as much time or experience . Gizmo's are great, but it still takes someone to \"Push the button\" Goose

Author:	StrangeLuv [ 23 Mar 2008, 02:30 ]
Post subject:
With the response this Hawgsmoke is generating, I suspect there will no issues with future competitions. This years competition will have all three A-10 versions present. Strictly speaking dumb bombs and strafe, there is no advantage of one version over the other. I would even say there are no advantages to the PGM delivery between versions. The new versions advantages lie in getting the information, not so much in the actual delivery. As of right now, Hawgsmoke will only involve dumb bomb and strafe deliveries anyway. Keep the faith

Author:	Dice-man [ 23 Mar 2008, 02:56 ]
Post subject:
StrangeLuv wrote: With the response this Hawgsmoke is generating, I suspect there will no issues with future competitions. This years competition will have all three A-10 versions present. Strictly speaking dumb bombs and strafe, there is no advantage of one version over the other. I would even say there are no advantages to the PGM delivery between versions. The new versions advantages lie in getting the information, not so much in the actual delivery. As of right now, Hawgsmoke will only involve dumb bomb and strafe deliveries anyway. Keep the faith That's what I wanted to know...Hawgsmoke is safe. Didn't know you guys would have the "C" and A-10A "plus" this year, interesting. I will have to keep an eye on how the comp ends-up...hope the "A" kicks ass.

Author:	sgtgoose1 [ 23 Mar 2008, 13:55 ]
Post subject:
+2 on Dice's outlook, Its just me being Bias Goose

Author:	Ice Pirate [ 24 Mar 2008, 22:45 ]
Post subject:
Dutchy wrote: To Icepirate. Do you meant the difference between an A and B model Warthog? There is one B and that is a twoseater. You can visit that at Edwards afb. Or was that not the question. A F-16 or F-15 is also from A till ....... . All that types are also on Red Flag or other Flags. It is an evalution. The A-10 has his evalution from A to C. So maybe the Hawgsmoke get another future. We will see. Only this time some will fly the "old" A type and the other fly the C type. Now we can really see what the C bring more than A. This in mine vision how i see it. DOUGHT! "Please leave the befuddled ORF in the corner to himself. Nothing to see here citizens, move it along." Yeah, I was thinking of the A+.

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