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I HOPE THERE RIGHT ABOUT EASIER MAINTANCE.
WITH THE FORCES SO SPREAD OUT,BURN OUT,ETC... YOU KNOW THEIR GOING TO WANT MORE WITH LESS.
THE WHOLE THING ABOUT THAT STEALTH SKIN IS YOU CANT LEAVE IT OUTSIDE,ALL THE EXTRA CARE.YOU CANT WAIT FOR HANGARS TO BE BULIT TO FIGHT A WAR.
PLUS I DONT THINK THE PILOTS WOULD LIKE MAKING A 48 HOUR TRIP BY THEIR SELFS FROM THE HANGARS IN THE CONUS.
THE B-52'S AND NOW THE B-1'S ARE CLOSER BUT THAT B-2 RIDE,TALK ABOUT RACKING UP YOUR HOURS.NOT INCLUDING THE HIGH THREAT MISSIONS THEY MIGHT DO OVER RAGLAND.

BUT IT ALL COMES DOWN TOO,
MY PLANE IS BETTER THAN YOURS,EVERYONE HAS THEIR FAVORITES AND NO-BODY IS EVER GOING TO CHANGE THAT.

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Goose, i think the F-22 and F-35 are a lot easier to maintain than the earlier stealth aircraft were.

At least that's what i read bud.

In the end it will be guys like you who give us the real story one way or another.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

sorry Luke, I was making the LARGE assumtion that everyone reading it would see I used the Buff because it was heavier, and was using weight as the variable not speed. Obviously a 9G turn at mach 10 would have a larger radius a 9g turn at subsonic speeds. Your right about the "accel change" I shoulda caught that.


"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

WELL SNIPE IT WILL BE THE "LAST RAVENS"AND THE OTHER YOUNG CREWDOGS,BUT ALL AND ALL THEY STILL THE GROUNDPOUNDERS AND GRUNTS TO DO THE DIRTY WORK UP CLOSE,WITH A-10'S OF COURSE <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Goose, these new high tech fighters are very cool, but as you know the only USAF bird an Army guy truly loves is the mighty Warthog.

Well, the BUFF too, those are(were) 'our' heavy guns, lol.



Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Luke, great stuff on Acceleration... I would have written it out but it seems you covered it pretty well.

As far as maintenance on the F-35, I have also read that they are easier to maintain... so I guess you maitenance guys will finally have some relief.

When I was at Luke AFB last week I talked to many F-16 pilots... this goes to what M21 was saying about a 9G turn in an F-15 vs. a 9G turn in an F-16. The F-15 is heavier and produces more power, so yes his turn circle would be wider than that of the viper's. I've had this confirmed by multiple viper pilots. If you're in a 1v1 knife fight, take the F-16. But if you're BVR, rely on the F-15 to get you through. the F-15 carries the APG-70, which is far superior to the F-16s APG-68 in picking out air targets from radar clutter. So, if I had to go BVR I'd choose the F-15 over the viper. In a knife fight, I would choose the viper because it is lighter and produces less thrust, and therefore has a smaller turn radius.

Another manuever commonly used by viper pilots is the "rope-a-dope"... I'm sure many of the "A-10.org addicts" have heard of this... but for those of you that haven't: Basically if you are in a turning fight with a fighter of similar turning characteristics you turn with him, but slower...you maintain power and altitude and watch him bleed power in his turn... eventually (since he thinks you are following suit) he will lose his power completely and you can go vertical or pull into a hard cross and nab him quite quickly. It would be interesting to pit the F-35 and the F-22 against each other. Actually we should be politically correct here, the Air Force's new name for the Raptor is the F/A-22. AIM HIGH!!!!

M21, yeah, gotta love Jefferson... =)

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

The F/A-22.....lets not go there <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Brought to you by your friendly neighborhood moderator...

If you can't go fast...go Ugly

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Prkiii, When they say F/A for fighter-attack they really mean F/S- for fighter-strike.

The "A" denotes F-15E type missions, not A-10 type missions

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Thanks for the clarification M21... have you guys seen the F-22 yet? I went up to the Edwards AFB Air Show a few months ago for Chuck Yeager's final "fly off" and dedication speech. Man, its a BEAUTIFUL aircraft... so is the JSF... I was in awe for the better part of the day =)

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

Only in pictures so far.

First time one comes to our local airshow i am there.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

BUZZ,
ANYTIME SOME ONE HAS TOLD US MAINTANCE GUYS SOMETHING WAS GOING TO BE EASIER,ITS BEEN A JOKE!!!!
SOME PENCIL PUSHERS IDEA OF EASY AND A CREWDOG'S IDEAL IS 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS MOST OF THE TIME.
THE ONE IMPROVEMENT I SEEN THAT SAVED TIME AND WAS EASY WAS THE F-2 PNL MODS IN THE MID 80'S TO THE A-10'S LOX PNL. NOTHING LIKE LOOSENING WHAT 20+ TRI DAIR FASTENERS MOST OF THE TIME STRIPPED OR BREAKING OFF,JUST TO TOP OFF THE LOX BOTTLE.
BUT WHEN WE SAW THE RESERVE BOYS WITH THAT LITTLE ACCESS PNL WITH 2 FASTNERS,WE ALL WANTED IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN YOU HAVE THE LITTLE MODS THAT THEY TELL YOU SHOULD TAKE 1 HOUR TO FIX,MORE LIKE 15 HOURS IN TIGHT SPACE INSIDE THE APU COMPARTMENT IN 90+F DEGREE HEAT.
THATS WHAT THEY MEAN MOST OF THE TIME BY EASIER MAINTANCE

I'M WITH PRKIII WITH THE "F/A -22" CRAP,JUST LIKE THE LAWNDART DOING THE HOG'S JOB,NOTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Being an ex-mechanic i know what ya mean Goose.

I did truly HATE that job.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

I LOVED IT SNIPE!,
I JUST HATED PEOPLE WHO'S ONLY CLUE ABOUT CARE AND MAINTANCE OF A JET CAME FROM READING OR A 2 HOUR FRAM COURSE!
NEVER TURNED A WRENCH OR HAD A CLUE



PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Goose, if i worked on A-10's i would have certainly liked it better.

Subaru's, Hyundai's and Tauruses just didn't get it done for me bro

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Goose,

Maybe you can at least consider that technology on these fighters will be easier to maintain... have you read up on the systems at all? Anyway, I have alot of confidence regarding the F-22 and F-35... the people I talked to at the air show couldn't stop jabbering on and on about its new features, it was quite interesting. Oh, do pilots count as pencil pushers? ... because I'm a pilot =)

I'm not saying your job won't be hard or un-demanding... thats what you pride yourselves on though isn't it?

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

Edited by - buzz2182 on Feb 03 2003 12:46 AM

Buzz.........

I was proud of my "Happy Days" lunch box when I was in the 1st grade, it even had the Fonze on it. Thats why I told everyone in my class about it for show in tell more than once. I believe I was 7 years old then.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Buzz, Goose has two decades on the flight line servicing USAF front line fighters.

Among his close circle of friends that number is probably about 200 years of experience.

When a guy like Goose talks, he is exactly who we should be paying attention too. It is folks like him that make it possible for the pilot's to even get off the ground.

You seem like a nice guy, but you have a habit of inserting foot into mouth bro.

LOL, we'll break ya of it

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Buzz if you ever makes it to a Commission, Trust me, Every enlisted man and women will make your life difficult. Arrogance only does one thing. It puts you on the bench, and you get traded to the worst team in the game. Tomcat and I learned these valuable lessons, haveing both been former enlisted folk.

Running roughshed over SNCO's, NCO's equalls Career suicide. Sure Mr. Goose has firm opinions concerning New trends in technology. But he has earned his right to base his opinions based on his experiances and trade.

Buzz, I suggest you start learning Leadership traits now before you get labeled as a NFO shitbird on the Flightline. Our DCC's are the best in the buisness in Military Aviation. There opinions have always been factored into my decision making process. If i am ever informed. "Sir this jet dont look right." I dont fly it. even if i feel in my gut that they are wrong. the sole decision is his and my life rests on it. I cant state this enough. Aircraft belong to the maintenence community. It is their judgement that allows aviators to do their job. They have a very high standard and obligation to perform their duty.

Respect has to be earned daily. Labeling yourself as an aviator doesnt build any credibility to me, In fact I see you as a liability.

Now back to your statement Concerning the New technology. I suggest you use tact and open a Q&A dialog with Mr. Goose or any other Maintainer that is apart of this community. But dont lash out insults or claim fowl because you disagree with his comments.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Well after reading this thread I figure I will have to chip in. Everyone seems focused on the ease of maintenace on the new generation of Aircraft but I say you are missing the most important part of the equation. Spare parts. That's right, spare parts or should I say lack of spare parts? I don't care how easy the thing is to work on, if I don't have the spare parts to fix it with it is a useless piece of junk to me. This is the problem we have in the Viper community right now and I bet the F-15 world is feeling the same? So what we get these new toys, no spare parts means no flying. The military is alway hot to trot for new aircraft but forget the need for spare parts. I say buy less aircraft but make sure you have funded the spare parts part of the program. I will now dismount my soap box.

Fender
In war there is no prize for runner-up. -- Omar N. Bradley

Thanx for yout take on matter Fender.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

I will fully agree with you Fenderstrat on Maintenence Spares requirements. I work as a defense Contractor these days for 3 High level Companies. Currently working alongside a Jet Engine Manufacturer assisting them in their LEAN manufacturing and Production Control. Some parts will take as long as 90 days to complete their machining operations and require a significant lead time to complete and ship to customer on time.

But like all Customers includeing the U.S. Govt. They never factor in Spares shortfall. A few companies however do and infact require us to maintain a percentage of each Jet engine component on hand. To be delievered to their Customers operating their aircraft.

But if we look back at the trend of what has appened to defense Contractors in the past 2 decades. It has not been a pretty enviroment. General Dynamics was absorbed into LMTAS, McDonnel Douglas was absorbed into Boeing. etc. etc. These 2 companies have too many airframes and components and too little facilities to maintain full support to all programs. Now if we add in the Closeing bush and Clinton era's... Funding hasnt been there to maintain current systems.

I agree with the Navy's decision of Streamlineing resources is good. Thit is why I like the Hornet team for the Navy, they wiped out an ageing fleet and invested into 1 group series of airframes. this allows them to streamline their Spares and maintenenance requirements, To ensure a better productive fleet.

We can all pipedream about the ideal fighter, But it doesnt help if the DOD and Congress can't fund it. A carrier wing cant live off of Federal Express or UPS or some Freight trucking company to deliver their parts, in the middle of the persian gulf, adriatic or mediteranian sea.

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\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Yikes you guys have got me all wrong here... I'm not downplaying Goose's credibility in the matter, just stating the possibly that the new aircraft will be easier to maintain. You guys all know I'm a pilot by my profile, I stated that because I thought goose might think I'm one of those pencil pushers and I'm not. This is my fourth year in various air force programs and I understand the importance of listening to NCOs and SNCOs... they are the backbone of the chain of command and to ignore them is just plain stupid. So yes, you can label me an NFO or a liability but your claims are fallacious... I understand goose's opinion, respect his position, and admire his service to our country. by stating my opinion I am not attempting to degrade anyone's opinion or state that I know more about the subject than them.

BigThug, perhaps you thought I was bragging about being a pilot...I'm only a private pilot with 70 or so hours, thats not much to brag about... I just want goose to know I'm not a pencial pusher and I am definitely not going to be one of those pilots that goes and says "get it done, I need 13 clicks trimmed to the left" without consulting my SNCOs or giving them a better understanding of the problem.

Does that clear things up? I hope so. AIM HIGH!!!

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

Edited by - buzz2182 on Feb 03 2003 09:32 AM

Edited by - buzz2182 on Feb 03 2003 09:35 AM

Buzz lets get the Facts Straight. you are General Aviation. you are not a Qualified Military aviator. I do value your opinion as an aviator, But not in regards to military aviation. Untill you have been where I have been. I dont see credibility in your statements. A resume of who you are or what you have accomplished says Little About you. Character traits are what people base your credibility and gage your ability.

However I Do like new technologies and i agree we need more of it.

Mr. Goose and other maintainers are the first hand technicians in the field that find our technology shortcomings and have to Live, sweat, and bleed maintaing the fleet so we can prosecute our National defense requirements.

This may sound that I am biased toward you, I am not. However if you wish to build repoir with me, i suggest you invest in your interpersonal skills. I debate with many non aviation people here on W.T. I value their opinions highly. They however have learned the unspoken rule Of W.T. "Brotherhood".

Im not a person of aristocracy and refuse to lead or live a life of 2 seperate social classes IE Enlisted Vs Commisioned, Maintainers Vs Pilots, and Civilians vs Veterens. We are a military family and a team working together in unison. Im Proud to call the Military and non military folk here family.

I am happy to see you are persueing an military education as a ROTC Cadet. I hope that you dont feel I am labeling you as unworthy of respect for what you have accomplished to this date. I am only pointing out that There is more tactful and understanding ways to express your arguements.

This is what Others and myself have been stateing. Nobody here has accused you of having an unvaluable opinion and threatend you with their abilities. However It started when you Accused another Civillian and non aviation person of not having a valued argument cause you were a pilot and he was not.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

I think we can move on now and get past this. I ask that you utilise some tact and not create a wall that claims your expertise out values someone elses observations and background.

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\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

BigThug,

Thanks for the imput... I agree with your views of a military community as a family, because thats exactly what it is. However, I don't recall saying that my opinion was more valued because I was a pilot... I just was letting goose know that I'm not some desk-jockey pencil pusher that doesn't think about his personnel. I can't help but think that you're a little bit biased against me because I'm in ROTC and it might appeaer that I don't have much experience... but I can get past that.

Yes, I am a general aviation pilot.. I stated that in my profile. Although I am not a military pilot i have researched military aviation for the better part of my life so I believe that my opinions are valuable.

if you need more information about my experiences .. I have been in Civil Air Patrol for almost 4 years and was in JRTOC throughout highschool..I've been to Cadet Survival Training School, Basic Encampment, Numerous base visits and summer exercises, and have many close friends that are military aviators. I currently hold a staff position with CAP SQ. 45 at MARCH AFB in southern calif. I am also emergency services qualified and am on a search and rescue ground team. I, myself, have been flying for about 2 and a half years. So if you still think my opinions aren't valid then thats your prerogative.

Nevertheless, if you believe that I need to be more tactful with my opinions then that is what is important, and I will do just that. thanks again.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by - buzz2182 on Feb 03 2003 10:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't recall saying that my opinion was more valued because I was a pilot...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Thats right you dont recall retracting that statement do you?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Oh and stop calling me a newbie At least I'm a pilot! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


Yes you are the FNG and yes you do make threats that your opinion is better than others. Because you Fly General Aviation.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can't help but think that you're a little bit biased against me because I'm in ROTC and it might appeaer that I don't have much experience... but I can get past that.

Yes, I am a general aviation pilot.. I stated that in my profile. Although I am not a military pilot i have researched military aviation for the better part of my life so I believe that my opinions are valuable.

if you need more information about my experiences .. I have been in Civil Air Patrol for almost 4 years and was in JRTOC throughout highschool..I've been to Cadet Survival Training School, Basic Encampment, Numerous base visits and summer exercises, and have many close friends that are military aviators. I currently hold a staff position with CAP SQ. 45 at MARCH AFB in southern calif. I am also emergency services qualified and am on a search and rescue ground team. I, myself, have been flying for about 2 and a half years. So if you still think my opinions aren't valid then thats your prerogative.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

This does not qualify you as what i stated below..A qualified military aviator.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Buzz lets get the Facts Straight. you are General Aviation. you are not a Qualified Military aviator. I do value your opinion as an aviator, But not in regards to military aviation. Untill you have been where I have been. I dont see credibility in your statements. A resume of who you are or what you have accomplished says Little About you. Character traits are what people base your credibility and gage your ability.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Mr. Goose never accused you of a pencil pusher. Sorry to tell you we all push pencils, and if you become an Military aviator you will find you will pushing a ton of #2 lead. Flying is a small peice of the pie for a Commisioned Officer in all services, Leadership and Management is the larger slice. Yes even Mainteners push lead too, believe me they hate it as much as i do. So i guess your saying lead Pushers dont have a valued opinions.

My friend Labels and slanders havnt accomplished much for you now has it?

Trust me you will be assimilated into the Military Mindset.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton