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So what ya' want Mr Mudd: breast, wing, thigh, drumstick?

Sniper, you sure put a lot of effort into these; wonder if you can get paid for stuff like this?

MAN YOU SHOULD OF STUCK WITH "NEWBIEE"

NOTHING HERE SHOULD GET PEOPLE WORKED UP,BUT FOR SOME CERTAIN TOPICS DO.
TT AND THE F-14D
ME AND GRAY PAINTED HOGS AND PUTTING TEETH ON NON-23RD HOG'S
BUT ONE THING IS CLEAR
IF YOU GET UPSET OR DISAGREE,THATS FINE BUT DONT TRY TO GET PERSONAL
IT DOESNT HELP,AND YOU REALLY MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A SPOILED BRATT!!!
AND THESE GUYS ARE GOING TO "STICK IT TO YOU GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO I WOULD SUGGEST A "OOPS I GOT CARRIED AWAY" AND "EMAIL A CERTAIN SNIPER"
THAN WE CAN MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
THAN DECIDING WHO'S A PILOT AND WHO'S NOT.

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

"It was a Bee."

Papa Goose, He keeps the family straight at WT.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"

Listen to Father Goose; I personally would describe the majority of the bunch as "passionate-professionals".

However, you can argue with me, I'm a grab-astic, civie, punk(and proud of it) -Ask the others.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

All the best to you and your future military endeavors.






Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 23 2003 09:56 AM

Me just pawn in the game of life...........

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

umm pretty sure AMRAAM has longer legs than at leaste the early Adder, due to the flight profile, and probly a higher kill% at any range anyway.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

We have plenty of zoomies here to confirm/deny that Boomer.

I will certainly defer to their superior knowledge on the matter.
I am not about to argue kinematic performance with Luke, Mudd or any of the other stick actuators that frequent here



Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

The AIM-120's kill envelope is still classified, for good reason..........However it is still a medium range BVR killer, not a substitute for the AIM-54C. Its is unfortunate that the AIM-54C was never fired in anger within its parameters, if ROE's would allow the clearance of such a long range weapon the real time results would impress us all.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Jan 23 2003 4:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Its is unfortunate that the AIM-54C was never fired in anger within its parameters, if ROE's would allow the clearance of such a long range weapon the real time results would impress us all.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


For a million dollars a pop it da*n-well should!

*Correction: $477,131 according to FAS.org(but I take their info with a "grain of salt")


Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 23 2003 7:30 PM

Sniper, I think you credit me too much by attributing knowledge about missiles to me. I am but a lowly FAIP. I have only 6 months left before leaving for DM to learn the A10. So, no radar, no long missiles, no interest (except for that information that I will study in the vault about bad guy stuff that can save my ass some day).

I can talk 'simple' BFM okay as far as aerodynamics, lift, turn performance, specific power (or as the books phonetically pronounce it for us dumb pilot types - P "sub" ess), and all that crap. One circle, 2 circle, etc.....these are very basic things. Get into ACM (many vs. many, BVR as well as WVR) and you lose me quickly. That is also why I have not posted to your question about ACM and the viper vs fulcrum question. I can talk about and offer up some insight as to 1v1 turning performance, endurance and the like - I can even throw in the dangers of the high off boresight stuff. But the ACM question is pretty complex involving not only the aircraft but its radar, radar signature, visual signature, tactics, training, ROE, etc........

....really the bottom line is I will just have to hope that the students that I train right now learn their crap and do it right in their F15s, F16s, F4s, eurofighters, F18s (spanish guys - no more spanish students go here but I flew with a couple about a year ago), etc.... That way if and when I need to go in and kill a few hundred bad guys at a time on the ground I will not need to worry too much about the turn performance of the fulcrum or the potential range of the adder.

One thing I can do is ask those who really do know that stuff - the guys who have flown that stuff in combat that are now fellow instructors here.

As for the "at least I'm a pilot" guy.....dude, a pilot does not make one a warrior; it is the attitude, professionalism, knowledge, and hard work. That and the desire, no, NEED to go where the bad guys are and kill people and break their stuff. I would not question the warrior in sniper if you paid me....

Luke thanx for the honest answer, but however limited you may believe your knowledge to be it is still a lot more than most of the rest of us know.
I appreciate you asking around for details bro, i owe ya one.

Thanx for the kind words Squelch, they mean a lot.


Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

M21,

The F/A-18C doesn't use the APG-73, its uses the APG-65. True, I was mistaken about the role of the E/F... looks like the F will also be an interceptor. If they were going to do A-G work I would think they would use the F though, two heads are better than one, especially when you are doing SEAD.

The '73 is barely being implemented on the F-22... who told you you they had it on C-Model F/A-18s?

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

HE'S GOT THE LINK ABOVE IN HIS ANSWER RIGHT AFTER THE "NEWBIEE" REMARK
I'M NOT A "TECH HEAD HERE" BUT SINCE THE 73 IS AN UPGRADED 65 WHATS THE POINT?
IF YOU LOOK ON THE LINK IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THEY USE THEM ON F-18C.
I DONT KNOW WHAT GOES INTO THE UPGRADING OF THE SYSTEM BUT IT MUST BE EASY FOR THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO DO IT.LIKE A TCTO CHANGE OR UPGRADE.
SO I THINK THAT SNIPE PRETTY WELL ANSWERED THE QUESTION AND BACKED IT UP.

OH BUZZ2182 RE READ WHAT LUKE SAID. IF YOU WANT TO BE A PILOT GREAT!THE USAF NEEDS THEM,BUT WORK ON YOUR PEOPLE SKILLS,BECAUSE THE FIRST TIME YOU TAKE THE"I'M A PILOT ATTITUDE" WITH A CREWCHIEF IT WONT TAKE LONG FOR YOU TO EARN A REP IN THE MAINTANCE HOUSE YOU WONT WANT OR NEED.
JUST A LITTLE ADVICE FROM A OLD CREWCHIEF


PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

You are having a little difficulty here with the lineage of the radar designations as issued it seems.

Here they are, in order, by platform(Post US F-4)

APG-63= F-15A/C(APG-63(V)2 version of this radar is digitized and features AESA technology- for F-15K)
APG-64= Proposed evolution of APG-63, not developed
APG-65= F-18A/B, AV-8B
APG-66= F-16A/B
APG-67= F-20 Tigershark
APG-68= F-16C/D
APG-69= NOT ISSUED
APG-70= F-15E
APG-71= F-14D
APG-72= NOT ISSUED
APG-73= F-18C/D/E/F- interim in E/F
APG-74= Northrop pod mount radar
APG-75= NOT ISSUED
APG-76= Israeli F-4E
APG-77= F-22(LPI)
APG-78= Apache Longbow
APG-79= F-18E/F, eventual AESA replacement for interim APG-73
APG-80= F-16C Block60CFT- AESA technology

The JSF's eventual radar designation should be APG-81, but has yet to be formally assigned.

Any other questions Buzz

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
M21,

Two heads are better than one, especially when you are doing SEAD.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I 100% agree with The team Concept and Force Feedback. I do not agree it requeires two Airmen in 1 airframe. I will explain why. The F4 required 2 airmen to conduct the SEAD mission. 1 to Row the Boat, The other to shoot the Ducks. With the Modernization and Digital integration in the Cocpit. I as a Seasoned Weasel Pilot Never once in my 7 years in the Blk52 ever felt that i was out matched dealing with Surface to Air threats. It is more beneficial to have supporting aircraft to deploy tactics to manipulate and control the play of the battle.

The 2 men concept was a neccesity due to the design and electronics of that era. As a bit of trivia i also did a 8 month Exchange with a Marine all weather Squadron in the F18D. The aircraft was very capable of the all weather mission with SAm suppression and strike abilities. However I still prefer to be in a single Cockpit weasel. You dont have time for a commitee to conduct an immediate response. I have also spent time in the F15E mudhen and still to this day marvel at its ground mapping radar ability. In its mission the 2 man concept is beneficial in the Deep strike Low Level scenerio. Weasel work requires a fluid ability to adapt to the enviroment, a flexibility not required of a Deep strike penetrator.

Their are other places a 2 man concept is beneficial and that is in the Package escort and Counter air enviroments. Which has always been a benefit to the F14's design. Alone 2-300 nm away from friendly support with multiple airthreats. More eyeballs increase success.

In the sead role...everyone has a barrel at you. It is more beneficial to have another aircrew at a differnt angle away from the contact to gage the contact and to properly evaluate and employ their ordnance.

I like the F18E, I like what it has given the navy for the flexibility and sortie generations that a carrier can provide. It may be built to be the average do all type of fighter. The U.S. Navy does not have the flexibilty that U.S. Airforce has with Real Estate. They needed an airframe that was designed from the onset as a general aircraft. It streamlined their Maintenance and Pilot assets into one collective group. It may not fly as far, or as fast. But what it does do is create a solid and flexible fighter to support any operation at hand. When a fighter is feet wet and the enviroment has changed. I would be more than happy to have a F18e Superbug in my ops area, Becasue i know that he has the flexibilty to mutualy support any event that takes place. A united front in combat is essential.

Yes the U.S Airforce has Specialist aircraft. But it will always be the Deployed Carrier Group With Aviation and Groundfighting abilty that will have to maintain any ariseing situation Until the U.S. Airforce and Army expeditionary units arive.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Thanx for the insider's analysis Big Thug.

Now get yer ass back to Iceland

I will agree with you though that the Super-Bug epitomizes the Jack of all trades- master of none philosophy.



Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

M21,

I stand corrected. I guess I was thinking of the F/A-18 A/B... my fault, thanks for setting the record straight. Once the F/A-18E/F receives the AESA though, it will make it a very formidable fleet defense weapon, as well as a great strike platform. Barring the use of the AIM-54 and range limitations, the E/F should do a pretty damn good job. Don't you think so?


"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

Goose,

Yikes I wouldn't want to piss off any maintenace guys. Yes, I'm a pilot but I'm far from being an air force pilot. Its still my highest goal. I just finished a 4 day tour of Luke AFB and spent an entire day at the maintenance squadron. One of the main things the officers there emphasized was "stay in the chief's back pocket".. go figure. thanks.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

With scram-jet technology producing Mach-12 missiles I think the Phoenix will be a pleasant memory:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/bvraam.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Barring the use of the AIM-54 and range limitations, the E/F should do a pretty damn good job. Don't you think so?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>





Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 27 2003 11:44 AM

BUZZ

NOW YOU UNDERSTAND,BECAUSE LIKE ANYWHERE THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR YOU CAN MAKE OR BREAK YOU
IN CASE OF A PILOT CAN EITHER HAVE A JET READY OR ONE THAT "OH IT JUST STARTED LEAKING" SORRY AND THE SPARE IS BROKE TOO!

BUT LOOK AT IT THIS WAY TOO,YOU GET A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER AND WATCHING YOUR BACK READY TO JUMP IN IF THERE'S A PROBLEM,LIKE WHAT HAPPENED HERE EARLIER,SNIPER IS A GREAT GUY AND YOU CAN LEARN ALOT FROM THESE GUYS TOO,HELL I WORKED ON THE HOG AND HAVE LEARNED ALOT MORE HERE.BUT DONT GET ON THEIR BAD SIDE!

OK GUYS I'M OFF MY SOAPBOX


PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

the AIM-54 will always be revered, but I wish we would have continued with the AIM-155
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/aaam.html

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Tritonal, the US is not involved in the Meteor project, and the USN/USAF have no plans to adopt the missile IF, and when it is ever ready.

The USAF is working on a VFDR powered AMRAAM though, but it is in the very early stages.

On the F-18E/F, i think that as long as they can continue to fight against third rate pilots in de-tuned Russian junk they will be OK.

I'd hate to see what would happen in a 4 v 4 SU-30MkI F-18F WVR fight though....

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 sniper on Jan 27 2003 6:48 PM

Well, on another note... we must realize the ever-changing international situation with regard to air combat. As an interceptor pilot you can basically expect to do one thing -- fly long CAPs, waste fuel, and burn holes in the sky. Basically, there is nobody to shoot down anymore... Iraq's air force was either obliterated or defected to iran... Sudan has a small and insufficient air force. Russia isn't even a factor anymore. The most important role is that of the multi-role fighter or SEAD aircraft. This is a mission that the F/A-18E/F does extremely well. It may not have the range of the tomcat or the phoenix missile... but honestly, will we ever use the phoenix? The E/F is perfect for SEAD and A-G because it can carry a massive amount of ordnance (almost as much as the F-15E) and has significant range without tanking. It also has the newest avionics and can interface well with LANTIRN and JTIDS. It is an extremely maneuverable aircraft as well. So, we must remember that A-G is the new mission of the Navy and Airforce.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance".

It will surprise alot of people
Pilots testing it say it will do really well in a "knife fight."
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fighter-comp.jpg" border=0>

Tritonal, care to guess how much credence i put in that particular chart

On the Phoenix, and whether or not it is still needed, i feel it neccesary to point out that Iran and India have both recently boutght TU-22 Backfire bomber/AS-6 Kingfish, and India is buying more still.

And there are a lot of countries floating around now that have SU-27+ series aircraft.


Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.