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The logic of BRAC is hard to explain, and I will not try. But it may be of benefit in an unintended way...the fleet is too small and too important to slice it up at squadron size (or smaller, in the case of Guard). We need to institute fleet management as a whole now! Airframes should not be considered \"owned\" by any unit forever, just for the time being (sort of like leasing a car). The disparities between different units in terms of experience, flying time, ute rate and deployment cycles are too large to let 50% of the available airframes sit at home while the other half fly at a rate of 3-4 times. Afghanistan is the new \"Front Burner\" and the Hog is the main player in the fighter part of that plan, we need to look long term and plan for the big picture, not just our small part.

This is my opinion and I have stated it for a while. The Hog Community needs to get together and work as one, or we will surely perish. Can anyone remember the F-111 and F-4G? Small units and escalating operating costs forced the AF to eliminate them even though they were both still valuable contributors to operations. The A-10 fleet could find itself in the same situations if we keep pressing these petty battles between the Guard, Actives and Reserves.

There are many aircraft that can drop bombs on coordinates, we need to tell the visual CAS story at every opportunity. The situations where the only solution is a pilot working with the guys on the ground to solve the problem without gnat's ass coordinates, just a description of \"the bad guys are over there\".

Bad times are coming, in budgetary terms, we need to have a strategy. That strategy needs to maximize effectiveness, efficiency and readiness across the fleet, not just at the squadron level.

Coach

Coach, your points are all valid and I think everyone understands the need for an equalization of fleet time. Understanding the need doesn't make the pill any easier to swallow, especially considering some of the units have had their airframes since the day they were delivered from the factory.

Pride of ownership is a big issue in the Guard and the Reserve and, quite honestly, it shows in the condition of the airframes. I've worked on jets from every command and every base, the disparity in the quality of maintenance is huge and it's scary. A quote from a REGAF Captain that was flying with us during one of our desert tours sticks in my mind; \"Man, it's so nice to fly a jet that has everything that works\". That's a very telling quote Coach.

The Guard and Reserve have both increased their UE number for the A-10, I guess that's one good thing to come out of BRAC. They originally reduced it to save flags and, for a while, it worked.

The biggest reason the Weasel and 'vark went away is they became un-maintainable (is that even a word?). Vanishing vendors led the list of reasons and while there were other vendors willing to step in and build new parts, the per unit cost was astronomical. Add to that the cost per flying hour which was four to five times what it cost to fly a Hog and it's easy to rationalize the decision to retire them.

Certain airframes seemed destined to be around forever..the Buff, the 135 and the 130 come to mind right off. They've stuck around because they're just so damned good at what they do. I think the A-10 will join them for the same reason.

OC

OC,

Nothing is irreplacable, even the Hog. Good or not, at some point it comes down to economics. Spare part cost and availability contribute to flying hour cost. It could happen to the Hog just like it happened to the 'Vark and the Weasel. By the way, I think the F-111 was about the same age as the Hog is now when it was retired.

I've flown Guard jets, too. And yes, they are well maintained. And they generally have about 75% of the hours of their active duty counterparts. And they don't often go to the AOR for 9-12 months at a time. I understand the feeling the Guard has about their jets, I really do. But we can't afford to have our own fleet within the fleet anymore. Units need to be rebalanced every so often across the fleet if we are going to keep the maximum number of jets mission ready for the long run.

Of course, the counter to my argument is the old saying, \"When was the last time you washed a rental car?\" That's one of the major reasons we have never permanently stationed jets in the AOR instead of constantly rotating them back and forth with each AEF.

I just think we need to get past the emotions and look at this logically.

Coach

Coach,

The A-10'S could be made into \"Fleet Management\" with the units where they were with the manning already set.
Just Like the \"Super Wings\" England AFB and The Beach, 74+ jets 3 squadrons and 3 AOR assigned at each wing for a checkered flag.

The Composite Wing in Afgannyland is a \" Need now\" because of the lack of \" Super Wings\".

They should of been a North Eastern Wing, Upper Rust Belt(lack of a better term) wing.

Now would they have ALL THE JETS they did , No but each Wing would have 3 Squadrons in-which the Full Time ARTS or ANG Techs lived within a \"area\" the UTE folks would report on their assigned weekends.
They use to in the 375TH at Scott and the Aero Med Wing the Wing would send out C-9's on training stories to predetermined
sites for \"Turn and Go's\" picking up the members. on Friday and have them back home Sunday Late Afternoon or Monday depending on the rotation. That was due to the Medical Specialist came from a 500 mile area.

So You assign a C-130 Unit with the \"Wing\" or another Aircraft or another \"Wing\" to pick up members for their UTE weekends or whatever they needed to move their People.

The Crews do Touch and Go's anyway or 4-5 hour sorties, training well use it. That's how they paid for these \"TWA Flights\" but they paid for their food, and didn't get extra $$ if they stayed longer.

That makes a hell of alot more sense than breaking up several \" Grandfather Hog Wings\" with 1000's of hours of \" Unmatched Experience plus the Combat time you only get \"Under Fire\" flying looking for the bad guys without all the \"Gadgets and Gizmo's\"

But now you have a wing in the Swamp , and another one already making up their \"Count down to the F-35\" Calendars.

I bet you could get a pointy head to crunch the numbers, on what I just wrote , and you would save \"Billions\" in Moving the Aircraft, training pilots, the Crews, updating the bases, getting the Bugs worked out the \"TUDES and the NOSES OUT OF THE AIR, and have Mission READY SQUADRONS ,COMBAT HARDENED,WITH at least an average of 15 years behind everyone of the Keepers if not more not including 1000's of Hours of Drivers with 100's of Hours in Combat with CAS,SARS and any MISSION CALLED ON to do in 60 days.

Hell on the Way over if needed.

You can't Buy Experience and those Ground Pounders and Grunts don't need someone on \"OJT\" when their ASS IS IN TROUBLE.

So you could rotate the Airframes in and out of the Fleet like they did in the 80's, back and fourth to the RES or ANG and we would get one from them.
The jets would get the \"TLC \" lets face it the Active force isn't allowed to give to them anymore with the workloads and \"Extras\".
After ODS I think that Pilots should always be teamed-up with \"Hardened Pilots\"
We we're lucky we had 4 Nam Sandy Pilots with each over 100 hours of combat in the 80's ,and Crew Chiefs that did tours in Nam to look up too.

Emotions are High, if their was a fleet of F-35's replacing these Hogs then thats that, or going to the Yard. Not to other wings that don't Want them.

The Only one that makes sense is the 23rd at Moody



That's My Soapbox, I'll yield my remanding time to the Floor Mr. Speaker

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

It's very hard not to let emotions get in the way of the 'logical' thinking, but to me at least, it's still not 'logical'. I can't find really anything smart, economical, of beneficial of some of these moves, especially in a time now of war and the economy tanking. Shouldn't we have as many units ready to go and trying to save money and time? That's not what is happening with these moves. Stepping outside, and looking at the whole picture, it still just doesn't make sense. So when you can't get past that it's hard not to 'blast' the moves and call them out. I do agree with you though Coach about realizing the entire 'fleet', not just your squadron or jet. We ultimatley all want what is best for ourselves, our country, and the A-10. It just doesn't seem like this is the best for it........oh well, life goes on.

Goose, a little off the subject but I couldn't resist...the guys at Alex and The Beach were not \"super wings\". The Super Wing was at Bentwaters/Woodbridge with six squadrons and 122 Hogs.

Back to the topic...I'm not trying to defend BRAC, I think what has happened to the combat experience in the Hog community borders on criminal negligence. But I am proposing that we manage the fleet as one group. That means maintenance, depot, modifications, configuration control, etc. No more Guard waivers or Reserve work arounds or \"I have worked this jet since it came from the factory\". So what, every jet was new once, even in the ctive duty fleet. Time to move on. Fly 'em and fix 'em as a team, not just your little one squadron wing.

Coach

Ownership is a critical part of accountability.

A marine and his rifle.

A crew chief and his Jet.

Yes it is traditional and romantic but their is some things economically that are not beneficial by running a rental car fleet. over the long term it degrades efficiency, accountability and vested effort.

I dont like flying Jets that are serviced by people I dont know or previously \"Bent\" by some jackass that had a rough night on the town the previous night.

Too many pitfalls when you leave accountability to a third party.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

I get your point Coach, that was another \"Stupid Move\" on the USAF\" Breaking up the UK wings totally too. They could of cut Bent waters in Half, and had a \"Readly available batch of jets to go faster than today to a hot spot.
But as far as saying its time to get pass our \"Own little Squadron \" and Fly'em and Fix'em as a Team \"

I thought that is what We were doing for the last 30 years???? We worked with the Guard and the Reserves all the time TDY, We use to send jets to the Guard if they had ORI's and needed \"Extra Jets\" . We'd go TDY to Battle Creek to help give them folks time on the Jets and show them what we knew and learned from some the \"Old Timers they had\". Desert Storm look at all the Squadrons that worked, hand and hand, we didn't care if it had teeth it got Bombs and Gas and a \"PBJ\" if the Stick was Hungry. You'd see A/R guys from 2 different Wings side by side replacing a front wind screen, Pat and his ABDR guys worked Every units Jets. the 23rd Gun Shop had Everyone in it half the time.

KIFA and KKMC was a mixture of almost every wing from the UK to the CONUS people who Volunteered to go Active , Reserve and ANG.

But when you BRAC like they did it was a CRIME. When they Broke up the 23rd they sent the Jets to Pope AFB with the Crew Chiefs PCS they only dismantled the 76th TFS.

But Ownership, Unit Pride, Squadron Loyalty doesn't keep anyone from being a team player. If it does then their in the wrong Job.

But if what your saying is true than to a point it's time to remove the Crew Blocks and just make \"En route assignments \" basically.
Whatever is on the ramp that night just go down the list and assign jobs.
It's just a Job then. You just Fix'em that's what the USAF pays you to do anyway. You don't have to worry about your unit or squadron anymore you just report to the Ready Room and go to work. Your Still going to Bitch about the Schedule they want you to put up. It'll just take longer or might not happen alot more than before those 12-16 hours working turn into \"F- THIS\" let Days do it .

But before When you had that unit Pride and Ownership you came in at 15:00 and had a Broke Dick Jet and it was on the Schedule again for a 08:00 Show time the next morning and it was your jet you said \"That F-ING *^^%^%^$%^$#%\" and you went to work. At 01:00 you had someone goto the Greasy Spoon for Burgers and Beer before 02:00 and Ice it down in the back of someones truck. As your Warping things up , someone is during your forms, your closing panels , BPO/PR , someone else is pumping LOX, Doing Tire Pressure Cks, Get that done count for all the tools twice, clean the Wind Screen, check the Cockpit one more time, the bring the 781's back out with the New and the old ones, you sign off all the old stuff, Double check, Then someone double checks agains, you sign off the New 781's Fuel Total, Lox, Hours, Up Tight and Out of Site Check the \"781'A's .
Turn in your tools and hit the parking lot it's now usually about around 05:30. Day's comes in at 06:00. Might as well give them turn over in the parking lot .
Goes better with an ICE COLD LONG NECK BUD and your still covered with grease and grime from either the Jet or the Burger (Don't know which is worse ) uniform is a total mess and \"Old Barney\" (Msgt Lilly) or \" Poncho\"(Msgt Baque) would say \"What are You guys doing here still?
Laughing. \"Hey why don't you guys stay come in at 17:00\" unless Don doesn't need you , I'll have them move your jet to the Spare\"


But Just Maybe

that's why some of these new \"BRAC\" units are not ready? They have no \"Squadron or Owner Ship Pride anymore\" in their Jets or Jobs.


So it's a \"Dying Breed \" I guess of the Old USAF, and I don't care for it much . I do CARE THAT THE GUYS ON THE GROUND who our MAIN JOB IS CAS IS NOT HAMPERED AN ANYWAY by these BRAC \"___________________\"( Fill in the blanks yourself everyone) ichanges that is over working the same ones over and over.

That's who is being hurt here.

So we'll disagree Coach and in the end Your Right, and I respect your Service and time with the Hog.

But I'm looking at this from the Maintenance side. An A-10 might just be an A-10 to a pilot (I'm not accusing you of THAT ) but to a Crew Chief or Crewdawg it's a \"Living thing\". Just like Billy and I , He had that fuel seep on 0166 and I knew where it was at and Why it did it\". He saw the ABDR I did on Her during the War, The Flak patches Pat and the ABDR Team did to repair damage from AAA on the out Skirts of Baghdad when they had to take out some AAA site on top of High rises.

That's what you loose with a BRAC, that's what you loose with a Unit being Broken up, that's what you loose by moving several wings to another area to make a new one with people who never worked on one before and treat the ones that came to help them \"Change\" like SHIT on the SIDE WALK. ( The SWAMP)

If thats Fix'em and Fly'em . No Thanks I'll remember the Good Ole Days.

But I under stand What Your Saying Coach , I hope you see my point too.

With all My Respect Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

I agree goose! I also think that the active folks should stop taking their best mechanics off the line. It seems that as soon as they get a guy trained they put him in a truck or make him drive a desk! They are constantly having a new group of green mechanics rolling in to a high ops tempo with trial by fire going on. I'm fortunate to have joined a Guard unit where i have been able to crew jets for 16 years and counting. I'm a MSgt and still on the line getting dirty with everyone else. We've even had SMsgt's Crewing. You just can't substitute that kind of combined experience! I'm sure it goes the same in the ops world! I just think they should give the mechanics the option of continuing to work jets where they excel instead of pushing paper.

I agree Hogfixer,

I think it should be a choice really, I rather hump the line on my jet then do paperwork or drive truck. In the 76th If I had to take over the Shift I gave the assignments and if anyone need anything I was in my office MIKE-5 on my Jet.

I'd do the paperwork later on after I was done . I never wanted to go past Msgt, never cared to get a \"Degree\" my priority was Doing my Job and Going Home to my Family and of course \"Fishing and Hunting\", Not in that order some times.

So that was my \"Idea\" of the USAF. But they got alway from that too. Books don't mean your making better Mechanics\" Education comes in many forms.

But a good point too is look at Andrews AFB and the VP Squadrons , Chiefs,Smsgts, Msgts do almost ALL THE WORK you don't see to many people under that touching any of those jets.
It should be your Choice if you want to \"Go to the Admin way or Stay on the Ramp.\"

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

But that is the Differnce between the Guard , which retains seasoned Folks with Active years under their belts.

Cant forget that 70% of active duty service time is not spent in Doing but in Developing the talent. Whether it be Leadership or apptitude in their MOS. This is not a identical focus in the guard, as most of your Apptitude and abilities are developed in the active force with a minor 10% straight off the street Commisioning or enlisted personnel in the reserve/Guard.

In the Guard, I could fly nonstop without having to do any leadership, Show up check out the logs, step to and fly. A whole lot differnt in the Active side of life. Also with all the ART's that supplememt some Reserve/Guard Squadrons, not all but most. The guard tends to hold together better do to all the aquired talent previous developed in active duty.


I would agree wth Coach's suggestion. of a unified maintainance management based around a Fleet of a given aircraft. The biggest difficulty with fleet management is that Everyone is bouncing all over in their career development. That retention of qualified personnel is hard to hold onto. Their can be a lot of slippage involved in that with many priorities in maintaining an active wing, that the Guard doesnt neccesarily have a problem with. Then you have 4 differnt funding Pockets that can be manipulated between, DOD Depot, Guard, Reserve, Active - Contractors. It is a huge mess and always has been.

In the 15 World its horrible, Try flying jets with 8 Differnt Computers and ECu systems, FMU's etc. So many differnt Blocks to know in a given emergency. 18 Jets with 6 differnt block sets in your squadron is a huge pain in the ass both as a pilot and as for maintainers. The logistic chain, Experiance chain doesnt always match up. Jets getting swapped out constantly, Limited budgets that only convert or modify 10 jets at a time, and gets cancelled and doesnt cover the broad fleet.

I would think the A10 would be a good aircraft that would manage better with a smaller fleet with the endusers all working together.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Wow, this is a great thread with some outstanding posts on it!

It has gotten me to thinking about the transformation EUCOM was planning when I left the command in 2005. It consisted of a few of major bases and a huge number of FOL-like locations where units would deploy to on a regular basis. It has pretty much gotten to that point already, comparing USAFE of today with that of 25 years ago at the height of the Cold War. But plans are to push that concept even further, with minimal permanent party personnel and the vast majority of forces being rolled in and out of the AOR via unit rotations.

This got me to thinking if this needs to be the process for such airframes as the Hog. One or two centralized “super bases” that “loaned” aircraft out to specific units both active and Guard/Reserve. All depot functions could be completed at that location, and units would only be responsible for regular maintenance. It would vastly reduce the logistics the community has to deal with now, given the dwindling numbers of aircraft. Of course, the two overseas Hog units (81 FS and 25 FS) would require different arrangements as it is not cost-effective to rotate aircraft in and out of those locations, but give the forward operating locations currently being supported I almost wonder if there is still a need for Hog units in USAF and Korea. Blasphemy? Maybe, but under the new administration there will be cuts and it is better for the Air Force to make those decisions itself than to have those decisions imposed on it.

It is, as Coach says, a matter of proper force management. Otherwise, the cost-per-flying-hour factor will steadily increase to the point that, on paper, the A-10 will appear to be not cost-beneficial. Once that happens, death will come, slowly but surely…

Cheers! M2

M3, I actually like your ideas though I see some issues. First, if you were to station a plussed up squadron of jets in an AOR it wouldn't take long using today's ops tempo to run the airframe times to that magic number that can't ever be exceeded. Even if you were to use Guard/Reserve jets which have much lower times than their active duty counterparts you'd still run into that problem in a relatively short time. In another thread there's an article about Pope hitting 10,000 hours during their deployment..HOLY CRAP!

Second, I think the depot issue would be tough to beat. I can't see establishing any type of depot maintenance in an AOR so you'd still have to fly the aircraft back and forth for depot maintenance. Putting civilians in a war zone has its own set of problems even though we're doing it now in the sandbox.

Now, having been taught to never point out the down side to a situation without having a solution, here's mine; There's 36 very low time airframes sitting in non-volatile storage. Very low time being defined as 2300 hours average. Pull those airframes out of storage and get them up to speed. Yes, it would be expensive..10 Million per unit wouldn't surprise me and it might even cost more. So what. Imagine what those airframes would do to the fleet time average. Now, imagine what stationing those airframes in some place like Bagram..and 36 would be a good number..could save in flying time across the fleet. I think it would be an easy sell to congress if the Air Force made some concessions in other parts of the budget..like holding the Raptor to the 185 number. Dunno folks, would seem to be a viable answer to a tough problem.

OC

M3 ,

Like that idea better than having A-10's sent to Bases with people who \"Don't want them but just use them to keep their \"WS or GS\" slot warm.

But if you look at the money it cost to build the A-10 , and even if it cost another $20 million to put those low hour Jets in service it would save money.

The BUFF (B-52) is a prime example HOLY CRAP how much have they spent $$$$$$ in last 40+ years.???. The KC-135 same thing.

Some aircraft are worth the money. The A-10 has proven that it's worth the money.

Just No More Sending the A-10's that are left to bases that Don't want the Mission.

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

OC, Goose

No doubt the Hog is worth saving, especially considering trouble the USAF is going to have justifying the costs of the F-35 to the current administration.

And I agree, it would make much better economic sense to bring those boneyard hogs back to life; but we all also know that big Air Force has never been the best or supportive advocate of the A-10. Honestly, some days I am surprised it has lasted this long, but I attribute that more towards its success in the battlefield and not the love of the Air Staff.

Also, and it may be my small reptilian brain, but I just cannot fathom why any unit wouldn't want the A-10! Are they nuts? What's not to love?

Cheers! M2

It doesn't go high, it doesn't go fast, it doesn't have an afterburner and it ain't pretty.

OC

Pretty is overrated, OC.

_________________
76-0519/77-0181/77-0196
354TFW/354AMS/354AGS
Detachment 1 81TFW
Automatic Flight Control Technician
Big Green Loud Kawasaki Rider.

That's a \"morning after the night before\" quote..one that you use after the beer goggles have been removed.

OC

\"Yeah but she can take a lickin and keep on tickin\"

Mutually exclusive, Coach!

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson