WT Forums

Sound off- Do you believe such a thing exists, and if so, is victimless crime really crime?
Examples-
- speeding
- buying drugs/getting high
- prostitution (buying or selling)
- unlicensed possession of a machine gun
- and so on...

I believe far too much \"crime\" is victimless and therefore not really crime, just against the law. It's bullshit, just keep making laws until everyone is a criminal. IMO, if there is no victim, then there is no crime. You cannot have one without the other. If you cannot show that someones civil liberties (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness) were infringed upon by the \"crime\" then it isn't one.

I take the position (I am serious, this isn't me playing Devils Advocate) that the four examples listed above do not infringe on anybodies rights, and are therefore not crime. I know there are plenty more, but those were the first four to come to mind.

- Speeding - the mere act of speeding does not hurt anyone. Now if I was to run over someone that is a different story, and THAT is a crime, but the speeding, no.

- Buying drugs/getting high - Maybe I should have started a different thread about this, but the \"War on Drugs\" is on of the biggest lies the gov't has ever perpetrated. If I get high in my own home (theoretically) who's the victim? If I rob a store to buy coke then ROBBERY is illegal, but the coke part shouldn't be. Nevermind that if it was legal it would be affordable, and If I rob a store to pay for gas money my car and gasoline are still legal

- Prostitution (buying or selling) - Assuming the woman is doing it willingly (not with a gun to her head, because THAT would be a crime) who is being hurt? And on a similar note, since abortion is legal, I guess a womans uterus is her own, but her pussy belongs to the state? What if she's just a slut? How can it be illegal to sell something that it is perfectly legal to give away?

- Unlicensed possession of a machine gun - Ted Kennedys car has killed more people than my guns. I will expand this to say ALL guns laws are victimless \"crimes\".

What do YOU think????

I understand \"Speeding\" it's a saftey issue, you don't want some going 60 thru a 25 school zone because they didn't \"Kill a Kid that day\"

Speed limits are Stupid in some places and most are \"Blown off\" by 5-6 miles an hour over , and you don't get a ticket.

Drugs, I don't care what people do in their own house with their own Body, etc... problem You Could be a victim of that lets say you get some good \"Weed\" and they lace it with another drug or posion??? Then Your a Victim right? Even though Drugs are aganist the law???
But the Drug War is a bunch of BS, I agree

Thats why you need the Machine Gun to protect yourself from the Drug Dealers looking for a New Meth Lab Site, or the METH HEAD Trying to Steal to get the next \"High\"

Hookers, Go For it alot do it for free anyway.

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

The war on drugs should end today- it should all be legalized, taxed, and regulated.

Almost all gun control should be ended today.

Prostitution should be legalized and regulated today.

Most speed limits are nonsensical and should be raised by at least 20% in most places.

You want more gov't taxation and regulation?

You already have taxation and regulation. What do you think the justice system and prison system run on.

You can only classify a crime as victimless, in most cases, if you stop at the first step. Speeding is victimless to the individual driving...unless he causes a wreck. Or burns more fuel, forces the country to be more energy-dependent, increases the risk to our national interestes. Etc. Almost all crimes except personal attacks are vicrimless unless you get caught. Is that the standard you wish to use?

Guns...not going to go there today. What exactly is a right?

I wouldn't say it's taxation or regulation. It's fines and imprisonment. Tobacco and alcohol (btw, both FAR more dangerous and addictive than marijuana) are legal, and then taxed and regulated. That the justice system and prisons run on drug crime is kind of my problem in the first place, it shouldn't be run on that, who did they hurt? I can grow tomatoes in my backyard, but not marijuana?

I see where you're going, and it makes sense, but I disagree. Someones speeding and burning more fuel has a direct cost to him, the price of gas. If everyone speeds and they need more gas (demand goes up) the price of gas will go up, and people will adjust their fuel consumption as their wallet requires. I don't think we need to use our foreign policy to keep gas in the $2-$3 range. Capitalism can take care of that.

I think so, Pretty much.

Yeah, this could totally be another thread. But to make it short, I would say that when the gov't restricts items to the rest of the population that it continues to use that is tryanny (or at least the beginning of it).

Nope, i would couple it with a huge decrease in personal income taxes and real estate taxes.

Let the junkies instead pay for our socialism every time they buy their cap of crack.

And i wouldn't worry too much about your gun rights. The Heller decision set the table for the collapse of most modern gun control measures. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

I'd like to clarify that some... I don't think that just because an action does not have a direct victim doesn't mean it shouldn't be a crime... but it should require some pretty serious justification.

If they would ENFORCE CURRENT GUN LAWS that have been on the book for years, and arrest and jail the ones who break those laws ,you wouldn't have to have 85% of the needless gunlaws.

Marijuana, should be made legal , I agree its no worse and really less then Achocal or Tobacco. If you grow it for your own use, pay a \"County Permitt\" like you do for alot of other things if thats what it takes and go for it.

Medical Marijuana should be legalized in every Damn State , Cancer patients and several others have already proven it helps deal with the sideeffects and the Chronic Pain. Why do I want to use Morphine or Op drugs costing $1000's, for pain when I can use a natural plant to deal with it , or Help me get thru Chemo???

But not all Drugs are safe, and need to be outlawed because they fund outside powers. But the Dealers and Suppliers are the problem not the user, METH, thats not a Drug thats a Chemical Compound developed to Hook people Nothing Natural.
LSD made by the Military in the 60's.

But Lacing a Joint with Coke or PCP etc.. is a crime, so You should grow your own, but get caught with 12 tons in your Barn , thats not for your own use.

Go down the Corn Field in the fall combining and find a area where someone chopped down your corn and planted Weed.

I Just Gun the Engine and Chop it UP!!!, Deer love it!

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Is tax evasion a victimless crime?

What about buying child pornography, as long as long as it's not your kid?

How about sex between an adult and a consenting 15 year old?

Jumping a toll gate or passing a toll station without paying?

Bootlegging music or other art work off the internet?

Sharing intellectual property like software without paying for it?

Eating at a restaurant and not paying?

Pumping gas and leaving without paying?

Open a restaurant and not serve certain people?

I'm just trying to figure out what it means to be a victim.

Coach

Coach, Thank You. This is what I wanted this thread to turn into, a real discussion. My original train of thought was along the lines of my first 4 examples, There really left me looking for a victim, and therefore wondering why such laws exist. But you've given alot to think about, about what is a victim. I don't want this to be a "This is what I think and FTW or whatever anyone else thinks." I like this discussion.

Oh I get it , Duh?? I feel right into it


Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

I'm sure there are no victimless crimes. Its that old adage that every action has and equal and opposite reaction.

If you go out and in cold blood just shoot someone because they are different (race, religion, big nose, stupid hat etc) you should be punished. On that same note if you are driving 10 miles over the speed limit because your alarm clock didn't go off and you are late to work that day, you are not hurting anyone, and not intoxicated i don't think that should be punished. There was no one harmed so no action should be taken.

Crimes and actions that hurt others need to be dealt with, i'm sure every government official has scoped out porn online or downloaded music and they can get away with it....why? Because they are the ones that make the rules?


A few more to think about that bother me

what about downloading un-released new music or movies that are currently in the theater?

People with a physical handicap that are denied jobs but need money to survive?

Women who have 9 and 10 kids but not enough money to pay for them and go on welfare, then have 5 more kids?

_________________
\"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives\"

I wasn't arguing if they were crimes...I'm asking who the victim is. If there is no victim, then should they be crimes.

Does criminal behavior require a victim to be criminal?

Coach

No, it doesn't require a victim to be criminal. But is all victimless crime really criminal?

2 great and possibly MORE perfect examples of victimless \"crimes\"---the seat belt and helmet laws. The only one getting hurt is the person not wearing it.
The only crime here is the origin of them. The real reason they exist is because of the law suits. Lets say you head-on with somebody, and they aren't wearing a seat belt. THEY are the injured ones. BUT!!! Their injuries are MUCH more severe (generally) and so they sue your insurance company for millions instead of thousands had it been less injuring. So the insurance companies are the ones who pushed those laws through. THAT, IMHO is the crime....infringing on our rights so they can profit more/pay out less. The RIGHT thing to do would be to insure their customers, and say \"if you get in a wreck w/o a belt on, we don't cover you.\" That should be enough to cover their butts. But instead they infringe upon our rights.
THAT, to me is the crime, and we are ALL the victims. So the passing of that law was not a victimless crime, but seatbelts/helmet-wearing is, and should NOT be criminal!

And now that I think of it, that falls in the same category as \"no smoking in public businesses\".
Now, I am not a smoker, and never have, and personally hate the stuff. BUT!!! I voted AGAINST that one. To outlaw it in public businesses is just right-infringement. Simply put---if a restaurant/business has too much smoke in it for me, or no non-smoking section, DON'T GO THERE!!! Take your business somewhere else. It's THAT simple.....

OK, that was kind of a tangent, but I will step off my soap box now....

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\"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a GAU-8/A at your side, kid.\"--Hawg Solo

Ok,

Here's My Biggest one,

\"Those Windows stickers that make out Some Kid as a \"Great Person or Hero\" after they Crash into a Telephone, Fly -off a 40 ft ditch, slam into a Bridge rail etc... on there 16th birthday,Prom etc... doing 90+Mph down a Country road Drunk with 1 or more in the car with them loose control and Crash ,roll-rover whatever and Kill all of them or maybe 1 doesn't die.
But then they make up these \"Windows Stickers\" in Memory of--- and the Parents \"We want Stronger Laws to keep this from happening again\"

Was it the Laws Fault??? Would a Stronger Law stop it??\"
Would that Damn Window Decal stop it??\"

Hell No!!!! and you don't need another \"Bill,Joe, Sue, ----Law\"

They caused it, They do it to try and \"Keep the other Parents from Suing their ASS OFF\" 98% of the time.

Ok I'm off my Soapbox

Goose

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"