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The USS Abraham Lincoln is currently deployed with both the F-14D, F/A-18E and F-18C.........If called into action against Iraq this airwing may illustrate the strengths and weaknesses of the mentioned aircraft. The Lincoln has just reached striking range of Iraq. This could be the acid test.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/868120.asp?0cl=cR


If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Thanx TCat.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

However, if one gets shot down by a mig25 then do not be too quick to jump the gun and call it a crappy plane. When that happened in the 1st gulf war to an F18C it was due to confusion in the air and piss poor execution of tactics. That formation was taken by surprise because they screwed up - not the plane....had those guys been flying tomcats and screwed up the same way the same thing would have happened except 2 dudes would have been lost. That goes back to something that I have been saying for a long time. Combat effectiveness has a lot more to do with how a weapon is employed (training, tactics, error-free execution, etc...) than the weapon itself.

By the way my comments about the F18C getting shot down come from a ANG F16 guy who is a former hornet guy who was there....

The F18E will do just fine, They have some great systems onboard. The liTTon ATFLIR is one of the best LAser and Infra red targeting pods we have to date, in fact superior to the Lantirn pods that are close to 20 years old in the 16 Community, Which of course if everyone remembers was not used on 16's and Most were handed over to the Mudhens during the First Gulf War.

The F18e Can Multiply engage Surface threats with its AGM-88 Capability, is ready For Slamm-er, JSOW and many other GPS and laser Guided Ordnance. It's strike capability is sound, Has an inboard tactical decoy, Can deploy ALq decoy series, can also Mine Harbours and port facilities, Aim-120 and 7MH capability, I dont see why there is such an outcry towards the Superhornet.

Anybody have any info for the Leemores first F18E deployment?

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

You must be thinking of VFA-115, Thug?

I am more realistic than that Luke, all arguments aside I am not looking for any aircraft to fall on its face. Those are our boys out there.

The Super Hornet should do fine, my argument is the strain it could cause on our tanking asets. Luke is right, all aircraft need fuel......However even durring the 1st Gulf War the only Navy aircraft that General Horner had any use for was the A-6E, it could pound targets at night with precesion, and didn't require constant attention from USAF tanking aircraft, A-6's from the Persian Gulf could pretty much strike any significant target in Iraq on its own and get back to the boat. The biggest issue with the Tomcat in that war was its failure to have updated NCTR gear, unlike the USAF which had all of its fighters updated. As a result the F-14 was tasked with either bomber escort, or fleet defense "feet wet", to avoid any possiable blue on blue engagments.

And that F-18C that got bagged? well that happends, just like the F-14A+ from the Saratoga that got bagged by a SAM, or a F-15C even.........Those things happen in combat. Unfortunatly our guys are not immune to the dangers either.


If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 04 2003 12:52 PM

Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 04 2003 1:02 PM

Hey Thug are you envolved in any Geothermal projects there in Iceland?

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

I have heard about that a ton of times too Luke.

I definitely bought into it.

You ever hear about the Spark Vark that scored a manuever kill on the first night against a Mig-29?
LOL, jammed him right into the ground while it was chasing the Vark down in the dirt. Whoops....

As far as the F-18E being 'fine', i agree.
EF-18G Growler too, that looks to be a good weapons system.
As a tanker, again, fine.

My ONE big complaint is the F-18F interceptor/air superiority/strike fighter version.

I just honestly don't think it is in the league of the top fighters in service NOW, let alone ten years from now. If it excells it will be a testament to our weapons, sensors and pilots.
It is almost getting to the point you can hang AMRAAM's and AIM-9X's off anything with this next generation of sensors and avionics and still dominate MOST opponents.

There are a few out there that warrant more though. Thank God we are getting the F-22 and JSF to deal with those threats.

To me there is going to be a vulnerability window between 2007 when the last of the Tomcats are retired and 2010 when the JSF is available fleetwide.

When i look at the rate India and China are arming themselves, and with the quality of equipment, that worries me. By 2007 India will have 2 aircraft carriers, probably at least 30 backfires, over 150-175 SU-30MkI Flankers and 10 Phalcon AEW- to go with a population of 1 billion people. That is one hell of a handful to tackle, even for us.

Luke please tell us in your professional opinion what you think of Indian pilots, i know you know something about that

By 2007 the Chinese will have revamped it's air force and navy, and will have the J-10 operational along with probably 4-500 SU-27 and SU-30MKII Flankers.
Throw in their Backfires and Badgers, and they will have a lot of firepower at their disposal as well.

I still think we'd kick their communist heathen asses, but i want to do it with as few US casualties as possible.

MUDD- On that 4th generation ATFLIR of the F-18E/F, i heard the same thing. I read an article that stated it would have 4x the detection range of current 3d generation FLIRS. Most impressive.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 04 2003 7:03 PM

Hey Sniper (or anybody, I guess), is the F-18E/F faster or slower than the F-18C/D (or A/B)? In things like cruise, acceleration, top end, that type of thing.

Ted

Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.
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Edited by - tedg on Feb 04 2003 4:17 PM

Slower.

Lower power to wieght ratio and higher drag.

The continuing, never ending rumor is that the Super Hornet is subsonic under 10,000 feet clean.

I am under the impression from some articles i read that excess specific thrust is extremely useful for disengaging from a position of disadvantadge and maintaining optimum cornering speed in turns, so it seems to be a really good thing to have. Obviously it greatly increases acceleration and climb rate as well. Thrust is probably the S Hornets biggest shortfall.

Luke, Mudd, et all- is that accurate about the thrust?

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Dogfighting is an energy game...

Thrust can help you reclaim energy when you lose it. So in the world of the F16 at low to medium altitudes yes, It can save you in a few mistakes. But lets say an A-10 or the superbug, you got 2 good turns in ya and your dogmeat if you lost the opportunity for a good Gun track. It will take time to regain that lost speed. By then the bad guy is in the WEZ and your punching the silk.

1 of the most important observations ive had with F18C's is that they are very high AOA and a head on merge is a suicide especially if you are faster than best Corner Speed. The F18 is able to quickly gun track his nose and get a prime lead pursuit on you even though hes blowing crucial energy, By the time u learn you made a critical error, u have finally slowed to corner speed and hes already in ideal WEZ for a heater employment.

This is where taking the Long way around and forceing a Pince and other manuevers are beneficial to fighting High AOA fighters. If i can cut the value of my radius to a 1/2 or less of his turn in a 1 circle fight. I will own him. and thats what you want if it comes to a knife fight, Controling the odds of the engagement. Hopefully you are able to employ ordnance in the first 2 manuevers of the contact, if not the odds start stacking against you and the odds of an outcome become difficult. His wingman and or flight maybe comeing in for their peice of the furball,

U would laugh how many times ive seen, heard or witness the hercs fall back on the Low and slow tactic and catch a cocky F16 pilot misreading the closure, overshoot, and call a fox 2 on a viper.

Knowing how to fight and properly employ ordnance on an adversary is more important than the airframe you are flying. You will bust your tail if you do not know how to properly employ the aircrafts abilities.





"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"

Well Mr Mudd that was a pretty damned impressive answer.

One of the things the F-18 has always been known for is about a half a turn of really fast instantaneous rate(Did i even say that right?LOL!)

Thanx for professional insight.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

In regards to India, and having been on joint exercises with their Navy........I don't think they are bad as some people like to make them out to be. In fact after September 11, they offered to allow us base our aircraft on their soil. Pakistan may be an ally........But a shaky one at best, and if I had to chose between the two........India would be the one I bank on. India also has no love lost for China, or North Korea. Very profesional people and a well equipped and organized Navy. They have sound doctrines and quality people.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 05 2003 01:39 AM

hmmm... sounds like more people are coming over to my side about India LOL.

BTW I just finished reading an article last week about AATTC , and they were saying it takes a VERY experianced zoomie to score a first pass kill on heavys!! It seems they start drooling and always underestimate the target distance and end up shooting the heaters from WAY too far away, the fast movers blow through way too fast, the heavies start turning and can stay out of trouble for quite a while!! Jeeze, what would be the likelyhood of a gunkill by an AC-130 on a TAC jet?!?!?!?! OH the shame, LOL interesting night at the O club LOL

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

India has a SUPERB air force. My best source for this is a friend who was in the aggressor squadron out at Nellis who moved on about a year ago. Those guys' job is to be the badguy. They are the experts on bad guy techniques, training, and tactics as well as their weapons and how they are employed. They use all sorts of fancy intel to get their hands on that stuff. He told me that in many peoples' opinion India is the only country flying eastern aircraft (migs, su's) that is worth anything. They are the only ones who at the same time maintain their equipment properly, train regularly and fly appropriate tactics for their weapons. Their pilots are great and the way they go about an air war seems to be VERY sound.

About the SH being subsonic under 10k - I do not know but I have heard differently. The T38 can do it (barely) but the T38 is extremely clean. Thrust vs. drag still is not too high though.

Playing with Mig-21s

A story about a Phantom crew that got a decoration for NOT shooting down two Mig-21s but the migs never returned to base - Yes read it again !!!!

Well, if you read the statistics about the Phantoms kill record in the IAF, you'll see the following figure:

Sparrow : 64
Sidewinder+Shafrir : 96
Falcon : 5
Gunfire : 22.5 (one shared with a Mirage IIC)
86 : Undetermined
5 : maneuvering

Two Phantoms on a reconnaissance mission over Iraq got an order NOT to shoot down any Migs since this would result in diplomatic mess.

On their way back home, the crew discovered two migs sitting on their tail. A short calculation showed that if the migs got scrambled for the intercept, they must have been flying the past 5 minutes at full afterburner after dropping off their drop tanks - this would leave them about 5 minutes of flight until getting really low on fuel, while the phantoms still carry their drop tanks and are still distant enough then be threatened by the migs...

The pilots decided to go into some maneuvering and started flying in circles, preventing the migs from getting into missile lockup position.

After a while, the Phantom pilots went really low and flew at 1.2 Mach - where they were much faster then the migs, and got away, knowing the migs would have no fuel to get back to base.

After air refueled by an A-4 escorted by F-15s, they landed in Israel. Pilots got decorated for their decision and performance while news arrived about one mig crashing in the desert (pilot ejected) and the other landing on a road and getting damaged while landing....



The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -General George Patton

BTW........A rumor I heard from several sources including an Israeli news periodical is that when President Bush met with Lt Colonel Illan Ramon's family, he told his children.....Your father was a brave man when he bombed Iraq's Nuclear facility's in 1981. We are now going to complete his endeavor.

I was a dove concerning Iraq for along time.......I felt we needed to allow the UN to provide Iraq with due process....It has been done, Iraq has been given its chance. Its time to become hawk, just like General Colin Powell has become.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

the lincon was off the cost of W.A. a few months ago and we drove over to watch launching operations

i got a bad feeling about this

Yes, she stopped in Perth for a bit.....on her way to the Persian Gulf

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

CNN is lying! They say no coalition aircrafts at all have been shot down during the 1st Gulf War...

TEW

30 some aircraft were acknowledged lost in ODS.

Try watching the news, instead of parroting Pravda.

OK Comrade?

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton