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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 00:10 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
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This was posted at http://www.acig,org
If you guys have not visited that site, be sure to.....It is extremely comprehensive and very well formated.

That is the original title of the following comment about F/A-18E given by Lt. Col. Jay Stout, a USMC fighter pilot, combat veteran, and the author of "Hornets Over Kuwait" (these views are his own and do not represent the views of the Department of the Navy, the Marine Corps, or the United States government ).


"By JAY A. STOUT
The Virginian-Pilot,
December 15, 1999

I am a fighter pilot. I love fighter aircraft. But even though my service --I am a Marine-- doesn't have a dog in the fight, it is difficult to watch the grotesquerie that is the procurement of the Navy's new strike-fighter, the F/A-18 E/F Su per Hornet.

Billed as the Navy's strike-fighter of the future, the F/A-18 E/F is instead an expensive failure - a travesty of subterfuge and poor leadership. Intended to over come any potential adversaries during the next 20 years, the air craft is instead outperformed by a number of already operational air craft - including the fighter it is scheduled to replace, the original F/A-18 Hornet.

The Super Hornet concept was spawned in 1992, in part, as a re placement for the 30 year-old A-6 Intruder medium bomber. Though it had provided yeoman service since the early 1960s, the A-6 was aging and on its way to retirement by the end of the Gulf War in 1991. The Navy earlier tried to develop a replacement during the 1980s - the A-12 - but bungled the project so badly that the whole mess was scrapped in 1991. The A-12 fiasco cost the taxpayers $5 billion and cost the Navy what little reputation it had as a service that could wisely spend taxpayer dollars.

Nevertheless, the requirement for an A-6 replacement remains. Without an aircraft with a longer range and greater payload than the current F/A-18, the Navy lost much of its offensive punch. Consequently it turned to the original F/A-18 - a combat-proven per former, but a short-ranged light bomber when compared to the A-6. Still stinging from the A-12 debacle, the Navy tried to "put one over" on Congress by passing off a completely redesigned aircraft - the Super Hornet - as simply a modification of the original Hornet.

The obfuscation worked. Many in Congress were fooled into believing that the new aircraft was just what the Navy told them it was - a modified Hornet. In fact, the new airplane is much larger - built that way to carry more fuel and bombs - is much different aerodynamically, has new engines and engine intakes and a completely reworked internal structure. In short, the Super Hornet and the original Hornet are two completely different aircraft despite their similar appearance.

Though the deception worked, the new aircraft - the Super Hornet - does not. Because it was never prototyped - at the Navy's insistence - its faults were not evident until production aircraft rolled out of the factory. Among the problems the aircraft experienced was the publicized phenomenon of "wing drop" - a spurious, uncommanded roll, which occurred in the heart of the air craft's performance envelope. After a great deal of negative press, the Super Hornet team devised a "band-aid" fix that mitigated the problem at the expense of performance tradeoffs in other regimes of flight. Regardless, the redesigned wing is a mish-mash of aerodynamic compromises which does nothing well. And the Super Hornet's wing drop problem is minor compared to other shortfalls. First, the air craft is slow -- slower than most fighters fielded since the early 1960s. In that one of the most oft- uttered maxims of the fighter pilot fraternity is that "Speed is Life", this deficiency is alarming.

But the Super Hornet's wheezing performance against the speed clock isn't its only flaw. If speed is indeed life, than maneuverability is the reason that life is worth living for the fighter pilot. In a dog fight, superior maneuverability al lows a pilot to bring his weapons to bear against the enemy. With its heavy, aerodynamically compromised airframe, and inadequate engines, the Super Hornet won't win many dogfights. Indeed, it can be outmaneuvered by nearly every front-line fighter fielded today.

"But the Super Hornet isn't just a fighter", its proponents will counter, "it is a bomber as well". True, the new aircraft carries more bombs than the current F/A-18 - but not dramatically more, or dramatically further. The engineering can be studied, but the laws of physics don't change for anyone - certainly not the Navy. From the beginning, the aircraft was incapable of doing what the Navy wanted. And they knew it.

The Navy doesn't appear to be worried about the performance shortfalls of the Super Hornet. The aircraft is supposed to be so full of technological wizardry that the enemy will be overwhelmed by its superior weapons. That is the same argument that was used prior to the Vietnam War. This logic fell flat when our large, ex pensive fighters - the most sophisticated in the world - started falling to peasants flying simple aircraft designed during the Korean conflict.

Further drawing into question the Navy's position that flight performance is secondary to the technological sophistication of the air craft, are the Air Forces' specifications for its new - albeit expensive - fighter, the F-22. The Air Force has ensured that the F-22 has top-notch flight performance, as well as a weapons suite second to none. It truly has no ri vals in the foreseeable future.

The Super Hornet's shortcomings have been borne out anecdotally. There are numerous stories, but one episode sums it up nicely. Said one crew member who flew a standard Hornet alongside new Super Hornets: "We outran them, we out-flew them, and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for those pilots". These shortcomings are tacitly acknowledged around the fleet where the aircraft is referred to as the "Super-Slow Hornet".

What about the rank-and-file Navy fliers? What are they told when they question the Super Hornet's shortcomings? The standard reply is, "Climb aboard, sit down, and shut up. This is our fighter, and you're going to make it work". Can there be any wondering at the widespread disgust with the Navy's leadership and the hemorrhaging exodus of its fliers?

Unfortunately, much of the damage has been done. Billions of dollars have been spent on the Super Hornet that could have been spent on maintaining or upgrading the Navy's current fleet of aircraft. Instead, unacceptable numbers or aircraft are sidelined for want of money to buy spare parts. Paradoxically, much of what the Navy wanted in the Super Hornet could have been obtained, at a fraction of the cost, by upgrading the cur rent aircraft - what the Navy said it was going to do at the beginning of this mess.

Our military's aircraft acquisition program cannot afford all the proposed acquisitions. Some hard decisions will have to be made. The Super Hornet decision, at a savings of billions of dollars, should be an easy one

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:18 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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Interesting opinion.

But didnt state much facts other than Hearsay observations.

I am a fan of the D model AW type that replaced the Marine A-6.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:20 
"What about the rank-and-file Navy fliers? What are they told when they question the Super Hornet's shortcomings? The standard reply is, "Climb aboard, sit down, and shut up. This is our fighter, and you're going to make it work". Can there be any wondering at the widespread disgust with the Navy's leadership and the hemorrhaging exodus of its fliers?"

Remeber me saying the same thing last week Tritonal?

Now you got a USMC pilot telling you the same thing.


Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:37 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"What about the rank-and-file Navy fliers? What are they told when they question the Super Hornet's shortcomings? The standard reply is, "Climb aboard, sit down, and shut up. This is our fighter, and you're going to make it work". Can there be any wondering at the widespread disgust with the Navy's leadership and the hemorrhaging exodus of its fliers?" <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That quote is about a valid as the frycook at McDonalds, disgruntled about HIS job.

We all have our own opinions on work ethics. But blameing the Superbig for Pilot shortfalls. Is a BS arguement. Haveing had the opportunity to serve in Marine/Naval Aviation and 7 traps in my Log i will Say this. Those that Have a Hook on their bird are the Elite of naval aviation. To jump ship and Fly a P3 Orion or just simply quit the service. Means their a "Pussy" and the Super Bug had nothing to do with it.

Im sure we can find a pilot in any community to vent dissapointments with their assigned airframe, And its even funner to slander the other communities.

The DOD knows what it is doing wrong to its aviation community and are the ones to fault. Congress needs to answer to this one.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2003, 02:33 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Yep......
Naval Aviators are not happy, but like they have always done, they will make it work..........

Former CNO Admiral Jay Johnson was a F-8 driver that went directly into the F-14 cadre without any squadron experience with the F-4. He was not happy about the F-18E/F decesion, but his job as a leader was to make the best of it, and create that air of confidence amongst his aviators. I have the luxury of not being an aviator and arguing the decesion venomently, however if I was in the middle of workups, or a "nugget" in the 18E/F RAG, the last thing I would be doing is bitching about what I am strapping my six to, or what it can or can not do.........and then going from a tactical jet aircraft pipeline to S-3's or P-3's..........

I have to go with Mudd, you just focus on your damn job, or you introduce human flesh and aluminum to ramp strike bingo.........

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2003, 02:41 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
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BTW.........
The A-6 was never a viable USMC attack aircraft, the Hornet was perfect for that fit........The F-35 will merge the Hornet and Harrier into what the Marine aviation community has always needed.

Intruder was perfect for the medium strike capability the Navy needed, but unsuited and overpriced for the simplicity and swing ability always needed by the Marines.....A-4 was a better choice than the A-6 in that regard.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2003, 11:40 
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003, 20:16
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All of this makes you wonder why the NAVY didn't choose to go with the F-22...I think it would have been a great choice, although costly and unimplimentable until 2004. What do you think Tomcat Tweaker... could the -22 hack it in a Navy/Marine Corps. environment?

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2003, 12:47 
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They were working on the A12 before the F22 got under way...

They got shafted on that deal...Went the Upgraded airframe Hornet to recure some political capital becasue of the blunder..LOL and made another mistake.

JSF is an awesome machine....Naval Aviation is recieving a nice plane

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2003, 01:16 
Dick Cheney is the one that screwed the USN.

Once he ordered the F-14 tooling destroyed(which in the entire history of US military aviation has NEVER before been doen to an active duty aircraft), the navy was screwed.

The F-18 was literally the only show in town.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2003, 13:50 
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002, 10:38
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the sad thing is that in an artical http://www.msnbc.com/news/859747.asp?0cb=-113133556 the Arthur makes it appear that the Pilots WANT the F-18! and they get it even though it's "cold-war" mission is over! what the hell?

"my heart is with them, but my mind has contempt for them. I want peace, but I know how to get it, and they do not." - Woodrow Wilson


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2003, 14:35 
Politics controls all Flyboy.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2003, 15:52 
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003, 20:16
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Yeah, the Navy could sure use a fighter like the F-22.. well, at least they are going to get some prime hardware with the F-35... I think we can all agree that the JSF is an OUSTANDING aircraft. cheers guys.


"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2003, 17:10 
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reasonably sure the SR-71s molds were cut up early too, before they were retired.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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