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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2003, 07:29 
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I saw this on another forum just passing it along.

Sky Was Limit for Cadet, Until Her Harassment Complaint

"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- Andrea Prasse, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 2002, was one of just two women graduating with a degree in aeronautical engineering. Her grades were exemplary, her record unblemished. Fresh-faced and physically fit, she had been singularly focused since age 12 on learning to <b>pilot into combat an A-10 Warthog attack plane.</b>

But along the way, a male classmate seemed to become singularly focused on Prasse. He stalked her for nearly a year, she said, demanding to know where she was going, whom she was with. She said he showed up at her dorm room uninvited, and she took to shoving towels under the door so he wouldn't know her light was on.

When she complained, she said, her superiors refused to intervene. Soon after, the cadet whom she had reported charged her with violating the academy's honor code by lying on a project. Eight days before graduation, Prasse was recommended for expulsion, her degree withheld.

<more>



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... -headlines<b></b><b></b><b></b>


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2003, 08:09 
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Needed to be a "member" of that site to read the article.<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2003, 10:28 
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Here's the rest:

The 22-year-old is one of dozens of current and former cadets who in the last decade have reported crimes ranging from harassment to rape, only to be met with retribution or indifference by their commanding officers.

"If her name had been Andrew Prasse, this wouldn't have happened," Carol Prasse said of her daughter. "These boys just don't get it. They are being raised to have no respect for women, and the attitude is fostered by the male officers in charge. My daughter asked for help, and they ignored her all the way up the chain of command."

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times on Tuesday, Air Force Secretary James Roche defended the decision to handle allegations of sexual misconduct at the academy internally rather than to bring in outside investigators; Air Force officials, he said, are fully capable of conducting the probe.

Roche also revealed that some of the alleged victims were civilians. Officials now are investigating 56 reports of rape and sexual assault, he said. Last week, testifying on Capitol Hill, he acknowledged that "there are probably a hundred more that we do not see."

Complaints by dozens of current and former female cadets depict an academy that is generally hostile to women, where unwanted sexual advances and outright assaults go unpunished and the disciplinary system penalizes the victim more harshly than the assailant.

Indeed, all Prasse may have to show for the four years of rigor that put her in the top third of her class is an FBI file that flags her as a "person of questionable character," Carol Prasse said.

The academy declined to comment on Prasse's case, saying it is under investigation with the others. But her experience illustrates the sort of harsh retaliation alleged by dozens of women who have complained of misconduct by male cadets whether it is harassment, assault or rape.

"Rape has been a dirty secret at the [academy] for over 20 years," wrote one female cadet in an e-mail circulated in recent months to her counterparts. She said she was raped, but her report to superiors was ignored and her case never prosecuted. The academy's "leaders know about what goes on, but won't do anything that may hurt the academy's reputation."

Since 1996, 99 reports of sexual assault have been received by the academy's hotline. But no cadet has been court-martialed for allegedly sexually assaulting another cadet, officials confirmed.

When the latest complaints were made public recently, Roche flew to Colorado Springs to warn 4,000 cadets that "bums" and "criminals" would be ferreted out. A team from the Pentagon is conducting an on-site probe. Air Force officials are already instituting reforms, including creating gender-separate dorms. Lawmakers have called for an independent inquiry of sexual assault at all the military service academies.

One recent afternoon, cadets at the Air Force Academy strode purposefully, identical blue uniforms crisply pressed, black shoes gleaming. With their hair pinned snugly beneath their caps, the women are scarcely discernible from the men. They are accomplished athletes and scholars recommended for admission by a member of Congress; some are descendants of decorated war heroes. They receive a free education valued at $350,000 in exchange for a service commitment of at least five years.

Experts blame the scandal on the demographics of the place as much as on its culture. The academy has accepted women since 1976, and still only 18% of the student population is female. Deference to command is sacrosanct; upperclassmen hold rank and underlings are expected to follow orders without question.

"As a young freshman, you have to take what's given to you. And it's always a test to see how much you can take. If something bad does happen, the answer is always, 'No sir, I'm OK,' " said Susan Archibald, a former academy professor and alumna who says she was raped by an Air Force priest she had turned to for counseling as a cadet. She is suing the Air Force.

Sexual assault is traumatic under any circumstances, but on a cloistered campus where cadets eat, sleep, study and train together under an honor code literally carved in stone, the sense of betrayal can be devastating.

From the moment they enter, freshmen are told that the Air Force is their family, that loyalty to their comrades is of life-and-death importance. But the danger is supposed to come later, in combat, not in school.

"The military teaches that you never leave a body on the battlefield. You put your own life at risk to retrieve someone because that's what it means to be a soldier," said Mary P. Koss, a University of Arizona public health professor who conducted the first national study of rape on college campuses. "Put rape into that context and you see why the women are having a hard time letting this go by. It violates their basic teachings. It's their version of 'friendly fire.' "

When sexual assault does occur, the military trails its civilian counterparts in victim support and protection, according to experts and officers.

Cadets, like any enlisted person, are subject to the control of the armed services. Constitutional rights are limited; by law, they cannot sue the government. There is no expectation of confidentiality. When a cadet reports a sexual assault, the women say, her conduct is often called into question by superiors.

Was she drinking? Fraternizing with upperclassmen? Although an amnesty program is designed to forgive lesser offenses so as to prosecute the greater crime, the system does not always work. A cadet's indiscretions can follow her for life and jeopardize her career as an officer. There is the risk that she will expose other classmates who might have been drinking at the time the alleged assault occurred. The pressure is enormous to suck it up and let it go, cadets and experts agree.

Counselors at a civilian rape crisis center in Colorado Springs say disturbing tales have been coming out of the academy for 15 years, including those of 38 female cadets who sought help after they said they had been raped.

According to Jennifer Bier, director of clinical services at TESSA or Trust, Education, Safety, Support, Action several cadets said they were ordered out of bed at night by upperclassmen and gang-raped. Officers ignored their reports, the women said, suggesting they somehow "asked for it."

The growing number of reports and the testimonials of concern by Air Force officers echo a similar scandal a decade ago. Then, a cadet reported being assaulted on Valentine's Day, prompting the superintendent to hold a private meeting with 501 female cadets. He asked how many knew of women who had been assaulted at the school; 205 said they did.

Not long after, the General Accounting Office conducted an investigation of the Air Force Academy, the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., and the Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md., and found that as many as three-quarters of female cadets experienced various forms of harassment at least twice a month.

The military responded, creating, for instance, the Air Force's cadet-run CASIE program — Cadets Advocating Sexual Integrity and Education. A hotline for reporting sexual misconduct was set up. A sexual assault awareness month was instituted. Posters went up on the walls, encouraging cadets to report rape; many thought the problem had been addressed.

West Point recorded one rape allegation last year, but the case was dismissed based on DNA evidence; Annapolis declined to release data regarding sexual assault reports.

But if the number of allegations at the Air Force Academy is any indication, some underlying message in the culture there seems to be undermining its zero-tolerance policy, critics say.

"I knew I would be disenrolled for everything he made me do in the dorms. And sometimes word gets around, it gets twisted. It would have caused a lot more problems than it would have solved," said Angela, an Air Force second lieutenant and recent academy graduate who says she was raped as a cadet. To use her full name now would imperil her military career, she said.

"The problem is they use secrecy to avoid a scandal," Archibald said. "The more sensitive and embarrassing the case, the less likely it is to be prosecuted."

Although no cadets have been court-martialed, academy officials say eight male cadets accused of sexual misconduct since 1996 have been expelled "for other reasons" and discharged from the Air Force. Disciplinary action against a ninth is pending.

In Andrea Prasse's case, at least three members of Congress from her home state of Wisconsin have weighed in, urging the Air Force to release her degree and to honorably discharge her from the Air Force. "This kid had a great record eight days prior to graduation, not a blemish. Then all of a sudden a ton of demerits are added to her record. From what we can tell, she was a great candidate to go to the Air Force Academy, and she made the system work, until the end," said Tom Schreibel, chief of staff for Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.).

It was then that the young man turned the tables, accusing her of an honor code violation, said Lester Pines, an attorney who represented her after the honor board hearing.

The charge centered on a project for an engine design class. Prasse was accused of saying she had drawn a single, 1-inch-long segment of a design when she had actually cut and pasted it from another group's work. She says she acknowledged from the start that she had cut and pasted, which was allowed under the rules. Her teacher supported her account, Pines said.

The board made up of seven cadets and no commissioned officers considered only the allegation of cheating; her charge of harassment was never investigated.

So, as with many cases at the academy where sexual misconduct or harassment is alleged, it remained her word against his.

"If an institution is incapable of responding to complaints of physical sexual assaults, is it even possible it can deal with sexual harassment that didn't rise to that level?" Pines asked.

When the honor board announced its finding guilty of lying Prasse collapsed on the floor and began to vomit.

Now, at her parents' home near Milwaukee, she waits for her lawyers to negotiate her case.

Last month, Lt. Gen. John R. Dallager, the academy superintendent, offered to allow Prasse to return on a six-month "honor probation" to complete training, graduate and be commissioned as a second lieutenant.

He called it "the best and most fair decision for Cadet Prasse, the academy and the Air Force."

Given her classmates' hostility several chat room missives on the cadet Web site read like threats Prasse says she is not eager to go back.

If she refuses, however, she faces three years of service as an enlisted person or repayment of $130,000 in tuition costs to the Air Force.

She has joined the local volunteer fire department to keep busy. Her dreams of piloting a Warthog are dead. And her career as an aeronautical engineer is uncertain.

Meanwhile, she said, the cadet who harassed her has graduated and is an Air Force officer, with a secured slot in pilot training school.


The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -General George Patton


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2003, 15:49 
If you want my opinion, i think she's full of spit, and not just a little.

IME, even minor accusations by female soldiers resulted in the MAN's career being scuttled, even without a shred of proof.

Please do note that our own beloved Poke has never said anything negative about USAFA.....

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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2003, 15:52 
In fact, at the risk of being sexist, i might also add that a female soldier, being a male soldier's 'equal', should just kick his ass like any guy would.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 07:20 
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I think this topic could quickly spiral into the realm of the unreal as far as people's opinions go. I, on the other hand am sickened at the thought of something like this happening to a female cadet at the academy. If any proof is ever brought to light that any of these allegations are true, these officers, or cadets in question should be immediately dishonorably discharged and thrown into prison. Of course the jury is still out on the allgations and I don't believe everything that is printed.......but would any current female officer admit to something like this going on now that she's left that part of her career behind, and risk retribution? I've never had a personal link with anyone in the academy that would be able to enlighten me so forgive me if I am uninformed. I also know that NOT all officers are good officers, like anyone else in our society. My opinion for what its worth.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 09:33 
You are absolutely correct in your observation that these are all just allegations at this time, and totally unproven.

IF they are proven, i agree with you 100%, they should be dealt with MOST harshly.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 11:09 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You are absolutely correct in your observation that these are all just allegations at this time, and totally unproven.

IF they are proven, i agree with you 100%, they should be dealt with MOST harshly.

"We shall leave no man behind"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

If they are, "MOST harshly" IMO would be a Senate hearing. A serious version of what I said all of us branded as "traiors" on Pak D deserved.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 11:14 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Please do note that our own beloved Poke has never said anything negative about USAFA.....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

She certainly has not, when asked about the Pentagon Officials visit/ slash my saying that some heads should roll if the allegations are true. Roots put an emphasis on not bashing the USAF for it.



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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 12:29 
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I knew her well. I interacted with her almost daily. I wasn't on her honor board, so I don't know all the details of that, but she was found in violation of the honor code and removed from the Academy 8 days before graduation. From my understanding, it was at this time that she brought up sexual harassment claims.

I'll be honest with you. "Sexual harassment" happens all the time, usually in the form of a lonely guy who just wants a girl to pay attention to him. You just have to sac up (pardon the term, but it fits), be a witch and tell him to screw off. It may make you unpopular for a while, but if you are a good person you won't have too much trouble with that. Usually, the only time a guy continues his advances is if you give him some reason to think he's got a chance. Didn't anyone tell you it's tough being a woman in the military? This is where it's tough. Not because it's really hard for me to zip up my flight suit and tie my boots, but because the social interactions are real screwy most of the time. I just figure that "screwy social interactions" falls under Service Before Self.

As for Prasse, I am glad she was not commissioned, regardless of the reason. She was difficult to work with, moody, and extremely opinionated. She once called me a traitor to my sex because she was all ass and elbows trying to find a female guest speaker for our Ring Dance and I suggested just finding someone who is interesting and/or inspirational, regardless of gender. I don't think the AF lost much with her expulsion, and I am not alone in that opinion.

If you really want to worry about USAFA, worry about the sexual assault allegations going on there now. This IS a serious problem. I will say that I was never assaulted, nor even treated with disrespect while at USAFA. I was actually impressed by how repectable my fellow cadets behaved with me. Almost to a fault, since every time I wanted to go out on a date, I had 14 "brothers" who were putting the guy to the test! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

However, there is a serious problem with the sexual assault investigative system. According to the regs AF-wide, if a rape is reported to anyone in the chain, the commander immediately takes it to OSI, and OSI conducts the investigation (makes sense, huh?) At USAFA, there is a "victim anonymity" clause which changes everything. If a cadet reports a rape to the Cadet Sexual Assault Hotline (which is an excellent organization, BTW), they (the hotline) are expressly DISCOURAGED from reporting it to OSI, and MUST report it to the cadet's commander. The commander is responsible for conducting the investigation, to include deciding if the victim needs medical attention, counseling, what evidence is submissable in court, what evidence is relevant, etc. Only when the commander has determined that it is beyond his/her capabilities should it be reported to OSI. THIS IS A VERY BAD THING. This means that Capt Joe Schmoe, who has no training whatsoever in criminal investigation other than maybe watching CSI on TV, is in charge of the investigation. By the time the commander realizes it's way out of his/her jurisdiction, perishable evidence is gone. And nothing can ever come of the case, since all that's left is he said/she said.

And here's where the big problem comes in. The press has distorted all of this to such a degree that the real problem isn't being identified (and therefore can't be fixed) and USAFA is having to implement all kinds of screwy procedures that is only hurting the problem, trying to appease the stupid press and national public. The fixable problem isn't that rape happens at USAFA. The leadership there has done everything it can do to prevent it, the rest is just up to fate (a side note, the majority of these rape cases involved cadets who were in violation of the regs. from my viewpoint, that makes it pretty unreasonable to blaim USAFA for the rape happening in the first place). USAFA does not sponsor rape, nor does it encourage rape. Any statement to the oposite is just plain bullshit. So instead of getting shocked that cadets are actually a segment of society, focus on the investigation problem, which actually IS worth shitting a brick over.

So, I wrote a lot more than I intended, but that's my viewpoint. I've been keeping my mouth shut as long as possible, mostly to see if/when the news about all this would reach you. It's HOT HOT HOT among most recent grads, but we realize that what's cosmic in our lives may not even register in the rest of society.

(A PS for Snipe, there's a whole lot of psychological stuff that goes along with rape, and a very common result in the victim is to freeze. You'd think it would be just that easy to gouge out the eyes and kick him in the balls, but it never is. The "fight" part of "fight or flight" reactions usually only come when the individual is surprised, like a guy jumping out from behind a bush, but that's not how these rapes are happening. This is more like bf/gf, who have a clear understanding that they are not sexually active, are making out, bf decides he's tired of waiting, and pushes it all the way. At what point does the girl go ninja? Usually by the time she realizes she's in trouble, it's too late. Go ninja as soon as he lets go? Not really a realistic expectation, as rape is an extremely demoralizing experience. Go ninja later? Kind of like Lorena Bobbit...? At that point, she's at the mercy of the legal system. Again, more than I intended to write, but there you go.)

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 12:44 
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Yeah but, out of 501 cadets, 205 said they were "mistreated" (kinder word). Don't you think there might be something going on??? True, some might be lying about it but, something is there. The problem needing addressed now are the investigation policies. Then we need to discipline the offenders. It really sends a chill up my spine when I think of the officers appointed over me could have been involved in something like this and got off free. Says plenty for integrity.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 14:02 
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Poke is right....VERY hot topic among the recent academy grads right now (I did not go there <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>). Several of my students know a lot about the situation. The only thing I can add is to watch the news for congressional hearings and recent academy grads being called to testify.

As a side note...all of the academy grads try to think what it is like at a real school where there is not even an attempt by the school body to live by a standard higher than that of the rest of society...It is a HUGE problem everywhere. I think whiners and people making false claims (I am not claiming to know anything about the situation with female cadet in question)for their own benefit do a serious injustice to the tons of women everywhere who actually have had a terrible experience like this. It discredits the valid claims...what a shame.

About females in the miltary. I have seen many females come through pilot training. Some are naturals and do great. Most do average. Some are shitbags. That is true of males as well. The social aspect is difficult. Should a woman be and uptight *!^#! and act so offended by the fighter community that everyone walks on eggshells near her so as not to get in trouble? Or does she be cool and throw herself into the community with absolutely no reservations. If she does that (and I have seen it time and time again) it is only a matter of time before someone goes too far and by that time it is almost too late to say anything. The answer seems to be somewhere in the middle but who knows where that is. The reality of it is it is hard for a woman to fit in sometimes. Take naming parties for example. I know of a woman that got named 'Mounds' (almond joys have nuts, mounds don't). That is awesome. Guys, however, you can name some pretty insulting things. We have a guy here called 'Lardo' because, well, he is a big dude. There is no way - not a chance - you could call a slightly bigger female pilot something like 'Tubby' or a not so pretty one 'Fugly'. Never - even if she thought it was funny and said it was OK. It would just not happen. Little stuff like that, like it or not, sometimes creates an uncomfortable situation. But....female pilots are doing great and we are learning and getting better at the social stuff....


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 15:02 
The social constructs of our society make it difficult to overcome the things that Poke and Luke have spoke of, and PC behaviour only makes it WORSE, not better.

Many believe that putting women in combat roles is forcing a square peg into a round hole, amd there is some real evidence that is the case, however, if a woman can do the job EQUALLY well(and i don't mean after lowering standards), i have ZERO problems with women serving in the combat roles.

What REALLY irks me is the quest of women for 'equality', which is a noble cause, but one that is totally undermined by the woman who cries wolf, or harrasment/rape/mistreatment to 'advance' her own cause at the cost of others.

The problem is men and women ARE different, we are not equals in all things. Nor will we ever be.
God simply built us differently.

The same is true for men and women within their own respective sex.

God DID NOT create all men equally. One would think that after 4.5 millenia of recorded history we'd have figured that out by now as a species.

Poke, and Luke, thanx for your assesments, i was waiting for Poke especially to speak up about this for a while, but i didn't want to be the one that broached the subject. I agree COMPLETELY about the flawed investigative procedure- as long as your description is accurate(and i believe you).

Just a little FYI for all the girls that are playing touchy/feely back seat groping with their BF's- where ever they may be....

The first time you say NO- and you are ignored, it is time to gouge out an eyeball.

Anything else is just going to be read by the young(and ofttimes stupid) young man as 'all part of the game'.

Girls say no, and boys push the limit cause they think the girl has to give several NO's to not look like a 'slut', but that she really wants it too. This happens ALL THE TIME.

Girls, if a boy doesn't stop, a failure to take proper and IMMEDIATE action is no more than appeasement.

Appeasement doesn't work on dictators, and it DEFINITELY does not work on hormonally charged young men.

Both understand physical violence quite clearly though.





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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 16:44 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I knew her well. I interacted with her almost daily. I wasn't on her honor board, so I don't know all the details of that, but she was found in violation of the honor code and removed from the Academy 8 days before graduation. From my understanding, it was at this time that she brought up sexual harassment claims.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I have to think that must of been a sight, she collapsed, then startd vomiting. And if the harrasment claims came right after that, or inbetween. Then it's surprising she was the only one.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As for Prasse, I am glad she was not commissioned, regardless of the reason. She was difficult to work with, moody, and extremely opinionated. She once called me a traitor to my sex because she was all ass and elbows trying to find a female guest speaker for our Ring Dance and I suggested just finding someone who is interesting and/or inspirational, regardless of gender. I don't think the AF lost much with her expulsion, and I am not alone in that opinion.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Hmm, can't lie and say I'm comletely mellow. But I'd like to think I'm more like Colin Powell described himself in his book. "The slamming of the telephone reciver, the pounding of a fist on the desk, the violent swinging of the office chair." Maybe like Tom Sizemore in BHD. But I'm not tough to work with, under maybe...but not with. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
BTW. I have to ask about your rank & hers. Did you happen to outrank her Roots?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you really want to worry about USAFA, worry about the sexual assault allegations going on there now. This IS a serious problem. I will say that I was never assaulted, nor even treated with disrespect while at USAFA. I was actually impressed by how repectable my fellow cadets behaved with me. Almost to a fault, since every time I wanted to go out on a date, I had 14 "brothers" who were putting the guy to the test! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Bit of that going around, I'll admit I'd gladly increase that to fifteen <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Liberal bastards. I fart in thier general direction"

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 17:58 
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Luke, it's great to hear what you have to say, and it's good to know it's not just my circle of friends who are pissed about it all. I really hope they get this stuff cleared up. I really hate the fact that the guys I think least deserve a bad rap are the ones getting it. There are a few bad apples (guys and girls), and they need to be found and eliminated, and then the rest can shine on.

Lunatock, rank was really different at USAFA. Instead of progressing along a set line, each position had a particular rank and you had that rank as long as you held that position. The only progression was that your rank possibility got higher each year. For example, 1st year everyone was a SMACK. 2nd year you could be Cadet Airman or C/Staff Sgt. 3rd year you could be C/Tech Sgt or C/MSgt. Last year was C/1Lt through C/Col. You only held the position for a semester, so you usually either went up or down in rank between 1st and 2nd semester. The end result was that rank didn't matter because it went up and down so much.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2003, 20:36 
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Ahh. Let me know if I'm learning Poke:

In the USAFA. Rank is meaningless, except those with the higher cadet ranks get kicked around more?

"Liberal bastards. I fart in thier general direction"

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2003, 14:49 
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I do not advocate sexual harassment, rape or PC. As such I am forced to make these observations as we prepare to go to war against a nation known to use rape as a tool. Are we not fooling ourselves here with this notion that men and women are the same in every respect. Creating a gender nutral society for the sake of being PC.

I think our society is begining to show the consequences of men no longer being trained to be gentlemen and women being 'empowered' as physical and social equals (fully enabled to be one of the boys taking full part in locker room banter). We are different.

I pray and hope that our service women are not going to be tortured using rape or other sexually demeaning actions. But lets face it the in the real world dictators use sex as weapon. Are we as a society ready to face these consquences?

Being from the south I personally think treating women with respect, protection, and affording them equal opportunities to suceed is correct. But we can not be training men and women side by side with the goal of teaching them to fight one and another as equals--then tell them to leave the base and return to social norms.

Poke I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish in your career. But at the end of the day if this is true about the airforce academy major rethinking of the realities that separate men and women must occur. It is not reasonible to have men and women cohabitate in the same dorms and not have sex happen this where the academy went wrong to begin with. Once sex occures in our society even if it was consentual, it becomes the most dangerous weapon for both sexes to use when disgruntled to end anothers career. Basically blackmale.

Inclosing Poke what do you think the solutions should be to these problems? I just dont have much faith in this social engineering.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2003, 19:08 
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Actually, one of the reactions of the higher ups at USAFA has been to segregate the women, much to the detriment of the institution. Some time in the next week all women will have to move their rooms to be clustered around the female bathrooms (something we all try to do anyway) and then starting nexts semester, all women will live in one section of the dorms and not in their squadrons.

The problem that I have with this is that the cohabitation is not the problem. The majority of these rapes are not occuring in the dorms, and the ones that are occur with someone from outside the squadron (so segregating the women really doesn't do anything, he's already walking somewhere, <i>where</i> doesn't matter. What IS happening is that cadets are going out to a frat party in Boulder, or at a hotel room somewhere, and that's where the problems occur. That's part of what pisses me off about the whole situation, that cadets are being portrayed as animals that can't keep their wad while I walk to the bathroom to take a shower. It just isn't that way. The living arrangements really aren't much of the problem.

My idea of a solution?

I'm going to think about it for a bit more, and then I'll answer. But for sure, properly investigate rape charges and then prosecute where appropriate. Restore the cadets' faith in each other.

"See that green switch? Flip it down."


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2003, 09:09 
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Poke, I understand your point. My main arguement is that we as society have begun to go down a road that does not expect men to treat women with respect. Today the popular music revolves around women as hoes, whores, bitches, sluts, or anyother degrading word to comment on the interaction of men and women.

My mother was very specific raising me to say yes sir no mam, open a door for a lady, stick up for your sisters (protect them), raised to believe never hit woman. I just see these basic concepts being torn down by our efforts a socially equalizing the sexes, when it is not biologically sound policy. Men and women (heterosexual!!) will always attempt to create relationships that will invariably have a sexual diminsions in larger percentage of cases. It seems to me more detrimental to a unit would consentual sexual relationships that cause jelousy, envy, or misuse of power by leveraging the lonely against the coupled.

I think back to stories from world war 2 vets who basically beded any french girl that would have them ( should have not used proflactics and improved the gene pool). So the US fighting man has alway been a sexual being whether chasing nurses, WACs, WAVEs, or rosey the ribbeter. The USO clubs of World War 2 basically were meet markets for men to have the company of women--yes meeting outside the clubs were discouraged.

Poke this is something you as an officer will have to deal with as you supervise young enlisted and junior female and male officers. I just dont know how biology can be ignored when it comes the concentual relationships that are detrimental to the unit. Not getting too personal but I would imagine for you poke that you must consider these things when you date within the service. The problem with rapist is no matter what rules you have they will break them since they are criminals by definition--my presonal opinion is you shoot them.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2003, 13:02 
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Just found this on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Central/03/0 ... index.html

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- Sharon Fullilove says the sexual assault she suffered at the Air Force Academy was so common that former cadets offered a grim warning to her and others at the school.

"During sexual assault awareness week, people told us that if you make it through all four years without being sexually assaulted, you're lucky," Fullilove said. "They also say if you want to have an Air Force career you should not report it."

At first, Fullilove didn't report the alleged assault for fear that doing so would ruin her military career.

"I really want to fly jets, and I had never quit anything in my life. I wanted to stay there," said the 21-year-old, whose mother is an Air Force colonel at the academy hospital. "I thought if I got through it and moved on, I'd be fine."

The Air Force has identified at least 54 allegations of rape or sexual assault at the academy outside Colorado Springs over the past 10 years, and officials say there are probably many more cadets who have not come forward.

At the academy Friday, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper said he wants to root out any sexual predators still at the academy or in the Air Force.

He said the academy must ensure that conditions in its dormitories are "not conducive for would-be predators to be around females at the wrong time and in the wrong setting" when more than 200 female cadets arrive in 90 days.

Many cadets who made the reports say they were ostracized or reprimanded for infractions such as drinking alcohol or having sex in dorms.

Air Force officials and lawmakers say the crisis is as serious as the 1991 Tailhook scandal, when women were groped or assaulted by drunken pilots at a Navy booster group's convention at a hotel. The Air Force is investigating, and at least four U.S. senators have called for an outside inquiry.

Fullilove was a freshman in November 1999 when, she said, an upperclassmen offered her a ride to her dorm from a campus lounge after dark.

She said he stopped the truck, locked the doors and raped her. When he released her, she said she ran to her room and showered, and then shut herself in. When he stopped by her room two days later, she said she decided she could not stay at the academy and went home.

"People have to understand, this is nothing like a normal college," she said. "Upperclassmen are your superiors. You have to listen to them and obey their rules. You can't tell them to get out. I didn't feel safe."

A few months later, at her parents' coaxing, she reported the assault. "I was afraid that this would happen to someone else," she said.

The case was closed with no arrests or punishment. Fullilove, who is now a biology major at the University of Arizona, said the man who raped her graduated and is in the Air Force.

Her mother, Air Force Lt. Col. Michaela Shafer, said investigators treated the family poorly.

"They told me my daughter was a liar," she said. "They looked me in the face, a fellow officer, a superior, and told me my daughter, who had been raped, was a liar."

In the past 10 years, two Air Force cadets have been charged with rape, according to Air Force Secretary James Roche. One was acquitted, and another pleaded guilty and was sentenced to seven months in jail. Administrative action was taken in other cases because there was not enough evidence to prosecute, he said.

Kate Summers, spokeswoman for the nonprofit Miles Foundation, which helps victims of military violence, said most military sexual assault cases involve a subordinate female victim.

"You can't make a blanket statement that men in the military are prone to violence, that's just not true," she said. "But there is a certain type of conditioning in the military as it relates to force. The training at the academies is the use of control and use of power, they're being trained to command. And some take it too far."

Former cadet Jessica Brakey said she was raped three years ago as a sophomore.

"I didn't tell anyone because I kept thinking that since he didn't beat me or kill me I was fine, and maybe it was partially my fault," she said.

She said her behavior grew erratic, her grades suffered and she started having nightmares.

Last November she reported her case to officials, who told her she was being investigated for mental health problems. No charges were filed, and Brakey was dismissed for health reasons.

If she's unable to return to the academy, she plans to attend community college.

"I still want to finish," the 23-year-old said. "I've been working for this forever."






The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -General George Patton


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2003, 11:52 
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Question: Is the Air Force being asked to "solve" a problem that is just a symptom of what is wrong with gender relations in our society as a whole? Can we reasonably expect officers, who entered the service to defend this nation, to solve problems that have sociologists scratching their collective heads?
My daughter is dating-age (isn't interested in following my son into the AF) and when any boy picks her up, I always have a brief chat with them. It consists of saying: "You are personally responsible for her safety. I expect that for ANYONE to visit any harm on her, they will have to step over your dead body. Do we understand each other?" They always understand me.
Proud to be an Air Force Dad!




"The First Rule in a Gunfight: Have a gun. If you violate this rule, no other rules apply" Jeff Cooper


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2003, 19:28 
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That is exactly what the Air Force is being asked to do. And the worst thing about it (to me, anyway) is that the media has worked itself into such a frenzy about "solving the rape problem and preventing any more rapes" that officials are not able to really address the problem, which involves changing the way these rapes are investigated and dealt with.

Case in point, on Thursday the Bring Me Men sign was taken down. Bring Me Men is the title of a very inspirational poem, and these words have stood over the ramp we all march up when we inprocess and down when we graduate. I have never heard of a female cadet ever feeling threatened by those words, but they took them down in order to "create a less hostile environment" for the women there. It's utter and complete BS. To add insult to injury, Hillary Clinton spear-headed that operation.

"See that green switch? Flip it down."


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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2003, 07:55 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have never heard of a female cadet ever feeling threatened by those words, but they took them down in order to "create a less hostile environment" for the women there. It's utter and complete BS. To add insult to injury, Hillary Clinton spear-headed that operation.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Excuse me? Create a less hostile environment? Let Hillary ask Jessica Lynch what a "Hostile Environment" looks like! I'm all for correcting real problems and minimzing the b*llsh*t (and hanging rapists from lampposts), but isn't it time the country caught on to the fact that being "PC" interferes with the mission?


"The First Rule in a Gunfight: Have a gun. If you violate this rule, no other rules apply" Jeff Cooper


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2003, 16:32 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
That is exactly what the Air Force is being asked to do. And the worst thing about it (to me, anyway) is that the media has worked itself into such a frenzy about "solving the rape problem and preventing any more rapes" that officials are not able to really address the problem, which involves changing the way these rapes are investigated and dealt with.

Case in point, on Thursday the Bring Me Men sign was taken down. Bring Me Men is the title of a very inspirational poem, and these words have stood over the ramp we all march up when we inprocess and down when we graduate. I have never heard of a female cadet ever feeling threatened by those words, but they took them down in order to "create a less hostile environment" for the women there. It's utter and complete BS. To add insult to injury, Hillary Clinton spear-headed that operation.

"See that green switch? Flip it down."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

And to think you didn't find that pic of Shrillary with the flicking snake tongue funny. Wonder if they'd OK a printout of that pic in place of the sign? (only half joking on that one)

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