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Alriight, I need some ammo here. There's an army guy on another board telling me the Apache carries a bigger punch than the A-10.

I'm offended!!!

I need some stats to jam down his throat, please!

That Army guy is in serious denial. Besides, the A10 has the GAU 30mm Gatling gun...end of discussion.

"Speed puts me in the zone."

There is no comparison. In a peace-time environment, with no AAA or SAMs, perhaps you could compare the two. The A-10 still has the edge ... bigger gun with more rounds, bombs (Apache has no bombs), and we have the Maverick. In war, however, the Apache and every other helicopter absolutely gets the snot knocked out of it. You can't support the troops very well if you're sitting in the back of an Iraqi truck with your hands cuffed, can ya? I just got home from Iraqi Freedom and I can tell ya, there were a hell of a lot of times that we (A-10's)were the only people up there for the troops. No Apaches, no Vipers, no Mudhens. The Apaches are impressive, no doubt, but they just can't hang with the 'Hog.

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There is no comparison. In a peace-time environment, with no AAA or SAMs, perhaps you could compare the two. The A-10 still has the edge ... bigger gun with more rounds, bombs (Apache has no bombs), and we have the Maverick. In war, however, the Apache and every other helicopter absolutely gets the snot knocked out of it. You can't support the troops very well if you're sitting in the back of an Iraqi truck with your hands cuffed, can ya? I just got home from Iraqi Freedom and I can tell ya, there were a hell of a lot of times that we (A-10's)were the only people up there for the troops. No Apaches, no Vipers, no Mudhens. The Apaches are impressive, no doubt, but they just can't hang with the 'Hog.


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Couldn't agree more...and WELCOME HOME...

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If you can't go fast...go Ugly

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The <b></b>ONLY<u></u>thing the choper has on the Hog is the forward operation base capability ie. no runway.

During the war with Iraq every attack helicopter that went out came back full of holes causing the army to rethink how they use attack helicopters. the A-10 can do a lot more damage than an apache at any time.

[quote]
In war, however, the Apache and every other helicopter absolutely gets the snot knocked out of it. ---------

Apaches got slapped bad on that one long range interdiction mission and adapted. 4 Apaches in total were shot down. At least one Snake crashed.

Snakes and Apaches worked out fine. Marines ran the piss out of their Snakes and were called for CAS often. One Snake driver lased in 25 bombs from the fast movers at an ammo dump.

They started working Hogs and Attack chopper together which resulted in some good work.

It was a combined op and they had to work some to get the right combination.

Hopefully they cut back on some of the bells and whistles on the Apache.

Attack choppers are here to stay. Apaches could turn out to be the only CAS the Army has when the Hogs are retired.

Jack

They both do their thing, and they both do it very well.



"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Hey
I am a OH-58D Pilot in the Army. I agree that the Apach guy was on some sort of new drug. Apache guys barely fly and when they do something breaks. Thay are just jealous, as are the Kiowa pilots, of your airframe. I would prefer to have A-10 support 1000 fold over Apache support. You guys hit the target and more importantly show up and do not run out of Gas. "AH-64 in the desert" On a serious note I wanted to join your page since as a Kiowa pilot we work with you all for CAS. You will probably get tired of me asking questions about your profession and preferences on JAAT/CAS. Thanks

Would love to fly A-10's senf them to the Army. HAHA

WELCOME ABOARD FOLKS,

THE HOG IS THE HANDS DOWN CAS BIRD!,AND YOU HEARD IT FROM THE ARMY,RATHER HAVE A HOG ON STATION.
THE MORE IT PROVES ITS WORTH THE MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS SHE GETS,CHEAP,EASY TO MAINTAIN,UGLY,SLOW, IN TODAYS MILITARY ITS SUPPOSED TO BE A FLOP,WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF IT DONT COST 100'S OF MILLIONS AND LOOK LIKE A VIDEO GAME IT CANT WORK!
THE SIMPLE ,JET IS
THE BEST

PRESS TO TEST

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

Delta Driver huh?

LOL, i hated those friggin birds when i was in the infantry and playing OPFOR.

Damned FLIR....

What unit are ya in? LOL, we want a pic with the Stetson on.
Welcome aboard.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Edited by - m21 sniper on Jun 11 2003 7:36 PM

Edited by - m21 sniper on Jun 11 2003 7:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> You will probably get tired of me asking questions about your profession and preferences on JAAT/CAS.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Nope, won't get tired, not here. Either way people will talk about it, so asking is just a way to get the specific information you want.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

The problem is the A10 is US-only.. damn US-goverment,.. now the Netherlands AirForce fly with Apachy's......

The Dutch Apachys where send for a KFOR mission some months ago, don't remind the location but is was hot over there and there was sand... the ground-crew has to protect the fragile Apachys en un-dust the things everyday....

No way sand will harm a Hog.... but it will hurt tha Apachy plenty.... Ever heard about a Hog shot down by an Iraki farmer? nope... but I can remember Iraki farmers dancing around a grounded Apachy.... And what was the problem with hellfires damaging the tail-rotor?

on the other hand the Apachy looks good. But I whish the Hogs where sold to other countrys than the US...

will be cool the Dutch Air Force with a Hog-squad..... Bring them to us (us = we not US of A)!

<img src="http://www.xs4all.nl/~ervani/ervani_sig.jpg" border=0> <br><br>Thou Mortal Grunt did you ever hear the sound of the GAU-Avenger? now you know how death sounds

hey guys
y don't hey upgrade the hog?
I mean surely if you gave them new engines for more power and agm-88's to take out sams they would last for years!!
what do you rekon?

Hum...I was thinking A-10 have AGM-88...I know it's not a great game but they have HARMs in A-10 Cuba...

Hey...I'm not a pig, I'm the Warthog !

I've got A-10 cuba thats y I asked about the harms and engines cuse those harm make it so much easier to attack targets.
i think the only weakness with the hog is a lack of power ( this is in A-10 cuba of course.)

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I've got A-10 cuba thats y I asked about the harms and engines cuse those harm make it so much easier to attack targets.
i think the only weakness with the hog is a lack of power ( this is in A-10 cuba of course.)


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Lack of power ? I hope you mean ENGINES power...Because the Warthog is the most powerfull aircaft of the world ! hehe

Hey...I'm not a pig, I'm the Warthog !

I think he means engines, and according to our own Hogdrivers that is the case in the real world too.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

And I also heard that he do so much noise that he warn all enemy of his arival...Is that true ? Or it's just to scary everyone ? lol

Kill the innocents ! Kill them now ! <img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/wtf.gif" border=0>
lol

NO, that's not true. By the time you hear a Warthog, you're probably already dead.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Hmmm let's see here the last time I was at the end of the runway in the support van and the pilot strafed us just for the fun of it we didn't know he was there until he went by. It is by no means loud.

Don't worry...
i ment the engines
believe me when i say that i don't need antone to renforce my ideas about the hog kicken ass.
hope i didn't offend anyone.

We mean the engines. The doppler shift of the engines doesn't normally reach you until the A-10 has already pulled off target after it's strafing run.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Yeah the engines lack some power but there is some problems with replacing the engines though. The A10 flies at a slightly negative moment. Any increase in power greater than around 15% would force the nose to tuck under in flight and moreso in nose down attitudes. I cant explain it any more than that because I dont fly A10s, just cessna's. Anyhoo the real reason for upgrading the engines is to save on hot section overhauls. The new engines although much more powerfull would be derated to 85% core RPM. That would mean no high times on the hot section. Thats the big reason. The new engines would provide some more power though accoding to our engine shop guys. I believe they said somewhere around 1300 lbs thrust more each engine. Not alot mind you but a little extra in the corners where it really matters especially during escape maneuvers.
All this was of course written in crew chief words. Any stick actuators able to expalin the physics of it ?
Also when we were doing the Kosovo thing a few years ago we had heard that the Apache was overgross with a full bag of gas and full weapons and couldnt get of the ground. It didnt sound right to me but theres got to be someone here with the real skinny. Can anyone fill me in ?

'Damn the torpedoes.....full speed ahead'

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YGBSM !

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Yeah the engines lack some power but there is some problems with replacing the engines though. The A10 flies at a slightly negative moment. Any increase in power greater than around 15% would force the nose to tuck under in flight and moreso in nose down attitudes.
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I never heard about power effects like that, other than there's a 9 degree upturn in the exhaust nozzles to avoid it (it angles the thrust vector through the c.g., more or less). We investigated several engine swaps in the early 80's . They were the non afterburning versions of the F-100, F-404 and RB-199. The F-404 got the most attention. The F-100 version had mind boggling sustained turn rates at 300 kts but it couldn't make many of them. The fuel flows were also mind boggling. I thought the RB-199 had the most potential but it was foreign and had no domestic political support. All the engine swap versions had to fly with external tanks to be competitive, range wise, and loiter missions were not mentioned. The lawndart looked good by comparison.
Maybe your confusing a power effect with a speed effect. The wing has so much camber the nose down pitching moments get larger with speed (tuck under) so you have to trim it out with the elevator.

Mc/I + P/A

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