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If, in a real war, a F-16C and a F-15C begin a fight (Ok...lets say they are in oposed teams), who will win in a Air-to-Air combat ?

I think the F-15 could win in a long range fight but in dogfight, the F-16 will win. What do you think ?

And I also want to know wich is the best in Air-to-Ground tasks. But for the Eagle, not the STRIKE Eagle...

Kill the innocents ! Kill them now !<img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/rocket.gif" border=0>
lol

I think you called it right when it comes to the distance, but it all depends on the pilot. If he knows his mchine, pushes it to the limits, and will break the envelope to win, he will probably beat the cautious, careful, fly by the book pilot.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think the F-15 could win in a long range fight but in dogfight, the F-16 will win. What do you think ?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

F15c and the F16C both Carry the same AIM-120 and are both equally BVR capable. The F15c has a Higher Resolution, But the F16 has a Lower RCS.

Secondly Both aircraft are nearly equal in T:W ratio. The only differnce is going to be at the higher altitudes where the Eagle has an Air Density and thrust volume advantage.


It all comes down to Pilot Performace. The F16 can hold its own.

I'm kinda new here and may have missed something on this one. F-15c's don't carry any air to mud weapons, at least none of my guys do, so the edge on that goes to the viper. As far as air to air, that's really a toss up if you ask me. The same weapons can go on each so neither has a real advantage there. You can't ask a pilot of either as they display fierce loyalty to their planes.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It all comes down to Pilot Performace.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

So, what we really need to be doing is have the pilots run 100 yard dashes, do push-ups and sit-ups, beer-drinking competitions, see who can pick-up the best looking chicks the fastest, and satisfy them the most fully for the longest duration...

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Thats what happens after "Red Flag"

Viva Las Vegas!

So...If both are equal...Why the USAF need them all ? Why not only the F-16 ? Or only the F-15 ?

IMO, the F-16 is better : He is more agile and he's lighter than the eagle, and if the USAF bought the Strike Eagle, its probably because the F-15C suck at A-G...

In my opinion of course...

Kill the innocents ! Kill them now !<img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/rocket.gif" border=0>
lol

Edited by - Warthog on Aug 18 2003 01:02 AM

And one last thing, if the USAF replace the F-15 by the F/A-22, and not the F-16, its maybe because the Viper is better...?

Kill the innocents ! Kill them now !<img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/rocket.gif" border=0>
lol

Warthog,

You are makeing assumptions on what is better for all the wrong reasons.

The F15C is an AirSuperiority Fighter. The F16c is a Multirole/Air Defense Fighter.

What this means is the F15C was Soley Designed For one reason. And that was for kicking any Advesaries ass while protecting those forces that are prosecuteing their missions. This is the basis of air supremecy. Now the F16 did not Become BVR capable until the Block 30 C model and Follow on Blocks came to be.

The reason for this, is because it allows a package of say "Multirole Aircraft to conduct their mission and provide self protection to their assets. The F15C's radar and Weapons Suite is set up to Track, descriminate, and attack multiple Targets at once. The F15C also Has more integration of other Avionics shareing equipment for the Air to Air Role as well Hardpoints for carrying more A2A missiles.

Secondly we add in the Differnt Speeds of the 2 aircraft. The F15c is designed to fly 2.5Mach and intercept an incomeing supersonic fighter's This is a really important feature, Especially during the 70's Cold War and the threat of Tu-22 backfire Strategic nuclear Bombers Or the Million Low Cost mig threat screaming accross the NATO Border.

The F16 Cannot fly to these speed do to its limited Intake Design, again its purpose was a "Multirole General Aircraft"

To shorten this explanation. The F16 does not have the Range, Speed, or Multiple Offensive BVR Capability.

Secondly the F15 can Knife Fight Better at Medium-High Altitudes. Allot of this comes into play, Thrust, Airframe-Wing Design, Avionics.

The F15c Provides the Screen to protect Aviation Forces. The F16c is the Second Level of defense, After that the Remaining aircraft are left to their own Self Protection Platforms.

The Purpose of the F16 was a LowCost Fighter/Bomber that would fill the Defense-Offense hole set about by the low purchase Numbers and Expensive F15C Force. These Two Fighters Were a phenominal Advance from the 60's Era Fighters they were replaceing. And they were nearly double the Cost as well for what they replaced.

Now we add in the A10. A primary "Destroyer of the Warsaw PAC Groundforces" Its sole mission is severely disrupting an enemy groundforces ability to Fight.

So you see each aircraft has a Mission and Designed Function

The F15C Maintains AirSupremecy Protection

The F16 Gets a Little Bit of air and a little bit of ground, filling up the holes in the defense-offence strategy taskings

The A10 Maintains Forward Movieng Ground Supremecy.

What was the task of the F-4 compared to the F-14, and the F-14 compared to the F-15?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Again we need to look at the era and the Services and enviroment that they operated in. What threats and design improvements were made during their service years.


F4 was used by both the USAF and the USN/USMC. They began Primarily as a AirSupremacy Fighter with the First BVR Concept. Aim 7 Sparrow "Great White Hope."

This aircraft Progressed to Bombing, RECCE, SEAD and other uses. As the Missions and warfighting concepts involved. Any time an advesary fields a new threat, all systems that are affected by that require threat investment deterence.

Because of the shortcomings and limited technology, systems upgrade path the F14,F15,F16,F18 were developed as follow on replacements.

F14 is a "Fleet Defender" Provides a Fighter Screen around the Naval Flotilla and or Escorting other Naval Fighters through their taskings.

F15C and F14 are comparable in there roles and "Mission Statement"

F16 and F18 are comparible in there roles and " Mission Statement"

Now also bear in mind, Budget defenses dollars, Changeing Geopolitics and threats. Evolveing warfighting and defense strategy by differnt administrations take affect.

Systems that were predominent before these systems slowly get edged out or replaced all together.

Some Case in points.

A-6 intruder, F111, OV10, A1E, F4E/G,

A-6 Intruder Navys premier BombTruck Eventually edged out by refined NAvy Marinecorps aviation asset streamlining and Aged Airframes. Replacement "F-18"

F-111 old 60's era replaced by F16C lantirn,F117A, F15E, B-1

EF-111 Jammer, C130 Special Mission, Portable Jammer PODS, EA-6b Prowler, S-3 Viking

Ov-10 FAC, replaced by A10 Community adding to its mission F16/F18 Secondary take up.

F4E/G SEAD-Replacement: F16CJ, Ea6B, AGM-88 becoming a common standard Upgrade to Multirole Aircraft. F16, F15E,F18C,F18E,Ea6bProwler, S-3 Viking ETC.

Now we also add into account the Joint operational doctrine and the campaigns that have taken place in the past 20 years. Secondly we add in our NATO or regional defense strategy partners that have their own unique capability. This adds more reduction and changes.

Now we add in Financial Politics. After a while the Pentegon has to please the GOP and define in detail what they need and what they can do without.




Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 18 2003 05:38 AM

Thankx dude.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

ah that sweet little OV-10 again, are we producing any COIN aircraft anymore, or is that all third world production now, Pucara, Tucano variants and such?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Warthog,

You are makeing assumptions on what is better for all the wrong reasons.

The F15C is an AirSuperiority Fighter. The F16c is a Multirole/Air Defense Fighter.

What this means is the F15C was Soley Designed For one reason. And that was for kicking any Advesaries ass while protecting those forces that are prosecuteing their missions. This is the basis of air supremecy. Now the F16 did not Become BVR capable until the Block 30 C model and Follow on Blocks came to be.

The reason for this, is because it allows a package of say "Multirole Aircraft to conduct their mission and provide self protection to their assets. The F15C's radar and Weapons Suite is set up to Track, descriminate, and attack multiple Targets at once. The F15C also Has more integration of other Avionics shareing equipment for the Air to Air Role as well Hardpoints for carrying more A2A missiles.

Secondly we add in the Differnt Speeds of the 2 aircraft. The F15c is designed to fly 2.5Mach and intercept an incomeing supersonic fighter's This is a really important feature, Especially during the 70's Cold War and the threat of Tu-22 backfire Strategic nuclear Bombers Or the Million Low Cost mig threat screaming accross the NATO Border.

The F16 Cannot fly to these speed do to its limited Intake Design, again its purpose was a "Multirole General Aircraft"

To shorten this explanation. The F16 does not have the Range, Speed, or Multiple Offensive BVR Capability.

Secondly the F15 can Knife Fight Better at Medium-High Altitudes. Allot of this comes into play, Thrust, Airframe-Wing Design, Avionics.

The F15c Provides the Screen to protect Aviation Forces. The F16c is the Second Level of defense, After that the Remaining aircraft are left to their own Self Protection Platforms.

The Purpose of the F16 was a LowCost Fighter/Bomber that would fill the Defense-Offense hole set about by the low purchase Numbers and Expensive F15C Force. These Two Fighters Were a phenominal Advance from the 60's Era Fighters they were replaceing. And they were nearly double the Cost as well for what they replaced.

Now we add in the A10. A primary "Destroyer of the Warsaw PAC Groundforces" Its sole mission is severely disrupting an enemy groundforces ability to Fight.

So you see each aircraft has a Mission and Designed Function

The F15C Maintains AirSupremecy Protection

The F16 Gets a Little Bit of air and a little bit of ground, filling up the holes in the defense-offence strategy taskings

The A10 Maintains Forward Movieng Ground Supremecy.


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Yea...I was wrong again...

THX for the info

Kill the innocents ! Kill them now !<img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/rocket.gif" border=0>
lol

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
ah that sweet little OV-10 again, are we producing any COIN aircraft anymore, or is that all third world production now, Pucara, Tucano variants and such?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not really the Gulf War really put an end to allot airframs do to the threat enviroment we are expecting to fight in today and the future. The A10, ac-130, predator are it for FAC and observation duties. And or aircraft with Lantirn Lightning FLIR targeting systems.. Its a real Pain in the Arse useing Binos at 400 knots. trying to pickout a tree from a tank or a casino bus from a scud.

The A10 is the only one left that can play in the enviroment with unaided eyeballs and negate a threats warfighting ability.

There is a bit of a push going on in the Army now for Grasshopper 'type' LOP's, but it'll probably never go anywhere.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."

I think the F-16 is better, mainly because he will stay in the airforce. Not like the F-15 that will change to the F/A-22.

Win with the best, die with the rest.
<img src="http://www.purekaos.com/board/images/smilies/rocket.gif" border=0>

Edited by - m21 sniper on Aug 26 2003 3:23 PM

Thunderbolt, you have to put the image in the [img] brackets for it to show up.

I fixed it for you above. To see how i did it, edit your message and take a look.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."



Edited by - m21 sniper on Aug 26 2003 3:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think the F-16 is better, mainly because he will stay in the airforce. Not like the F-15 that will change to the F/A-22.
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So all that talk about jsf is a big lie? The F-15 c/e isn't going to be gone tomorrow. They've still got years to go. This is still comparing apples to oranges here. If they were to hang bombs under the F-15c, they wouldn't be much. Maybe a couple mk82s but wouldn't count on anything heavier than that. The structure of the e model is much different and more tailored towards a heavy ordanance load, more than that of a viper. So which is better, the apple or the orange?Both have their replacements around the corner. Both get upgraded to stay current with technology.

The Isrealis can tell you the F-15s have always had an AG capability from day one, and the C model had even more than the A model. Remember that 610 gallon tank weighs more than 4,000 pounds( probly much more)and they carry that on all 3 pylons. I've seen the C models with 4000lbs of CBUs on each of the wing points and another 4000 lbs more of CBUs on each of the conformal tanks that flank the intakes ( this was before the E model and it's type IV tanks). The Isrealis have even mounted HARMs on the OUTBOARD wing pylons, but I believe there is a buffett problem with that.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Depends on pilot. F-15 has the speed and climbing ability. F-16 is prolly more maneuverable. Both are damn fine planes if you ask me. I'm partial to the F-15 because of it's two beautifully powerful engines, though the F-16 does use one of the same model...2 is better than one, LOL.

"When you put your hand into a bunch of goo, that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do."-George S. Patton, Jr.

It's really tough to get home with one engine out on the F-16.

Get a bigger hammer

If, in a real war, a F-16C and a F-15C begin a fight (Ok...lets say they are in oposed teams), who will win in a Air-to-Air combat ?

hmmm ok, let me see, "fragile" and highly agile single engine aircraft v rather large twin engined fighter, that makes things more logical, having 2 engines rather than one means for greater combat survivability, HOWEVER, the F16 is a good deal smaller than the larger Eagle, and so more agile, this, technically, gives the more nimble F16 the advangage here in a close in turning dogfight.

the case for the F15 has been well proven in fights in Israel, over Iraq and various other engagements since its first flight, without a single loss to enemy action. less can be said for the F16. at the end of the day, I think that it will come down to who is the better trained pilot.

size has nothing to do with agility, see me or the F-22 for evidence of that lol

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.