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<i>By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON - The Army has decided to cancel its Comanche helicopter program, a multibillion-dollar project to build a new-generation chopper for armed reconnaissance missions, officials said Monday.


AP Photo


Related Links
• RAH-66 Comanche (Boeing)



The contractors for Comanche are Boeing Co. and Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.


With about $8 billion already invested in the program, and the production line not yet started, the cancellation is one of the largest in the history of the Army. It follows the Pentagon (news - web sites)'s decision in 2002 to cancel the Crusader artillery program — against the wishes of Army leaders.


Pentagon officials said a public announcement was planned for Monday afternoon.


From the first days of the Bush administration there has been talk of canceling a number of major aviation projects, including the Marine Corps' V-22 Osprey (news - web sites) hybrid helicopter-airplane and the Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor fighter jet, but so far the Comanche has been the only casualty.


Doubts about the wisdom of investing tens of billions in new manned aircraft have been strengthened by the rising popularity of unmanned aerial vehicles and the prospect that such drone aircraft will eventually be able to perform attack missions in addition to reconnaissance.


Congressional lawmakers and company executives associated with the program were scrambling Monday to figure out the Pentagon's plans.


Sikorsky spokesman Matthew Broder would only say that "we are on track and fully funded until we hear otherwise."


The Sikorsky plant in Bridgeport, Conn., where the Comanche is being built, opened last year and employs about 400 workers.


"The blow is obviously going to be devastating," said Harvey Jackson, president of Teamsters Local 1150, which represents 3,600 Sikorsky workers.


As envisioned by the Army, the Comanche's primary missions were to collect and share battlefield intelligence information and attack enemy forces. It is a twin-engine, two-pilot helicopter with stealth technology designed to make it more difficult to track and target by enemy forces. Its armaments include a 20mm gun, 2.75-inch aerial rockets and an air-to-air missile.


The Comanche has been a target of critics who say it was an expensive mistake.


"The Comanche program has been plagued with wildly unrealistic technological expectations and the bugaboo of pay more and get less. Cancellation of this program would free up funds for weapons that work and meet our country's true national security needs," said Eric Miller of the Project on Government Oversight, a private watchdog group.


Loren Thompson, who follows aviation and other defense issues for the Lexington Institute think tank said he believes the Army under new chief of staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker favors ending the Comanche program, even though the service had been counting on it to provide a new reconnaissance capability.


"The Bush administration has now killed the two biggest Army weapons programs it inherited from the Clinton administration," Thompson said, referring to the Crusader and Comanche.


Earlier this year the White House budget office asked the Pentagon to provide independent reviews of the Comanche and another expensive aviation program, the Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor fighter.


Although killing the Comanche project would save tens of billion in future costs, the cancellation decision is expected to require the Army to pay at least $2 billion in contract termination fees.


The Comanche program was started in 1983 and had survived many reviews. Under a restructuring worked out in 2002, a decision on going ahead with initial low-rate production was to be made in 2007, with the first Comanches delivered to the Army in 2009 and full-rate production to begin in 2010.


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* Oh, Dammit. Somebody already posted the story.

Hope the Raptor isn't next.

Am i the only one here that is aware of the fact that the Apache is a flying(on occasion) shit-box?

The army should scrap all those roaches and buy the Jarhead AH-1Z's.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

"With about $8 billion already invested in the program, and the production line not yet started, the cancellation is one of the largest in the history of the Army. It follows the Pentagon (news - web sites)'s decision in 2002 to cancel the Crusader artillery program — against the wishes of Army leaders. "

Fluuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

In the briefing, the Army said that it can have a Block 3 longbow that can control a UAV.

The Zulu model cobra is 100% bad-ass; It's my favorite rotary winged killing machine.

If I were an enemy combatant and had to face it, I'd be pissin' myself.

I believe the Apache is a flying bulls eye for SAMs and RPG's; it's slow and heavy.
It can be salvaged by introdcucing new Marine-like tactics and stripping down the "kitchen sinks".




Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 23 2004 11:27 PM

They suck tritonal. The Apache has had so many glitches from day 1.

Sure, when they fly, they kick ass....but they don't always fly.

You know what aircraft had the single worst(by far) mission readiness rates of ODS and OIF???

You guessed it...the Apache.

The thing is ENTIRELY too complex(and too expensive).

The Key west accords need to be done away with yesterday, then the US Army could get some real CAS birds.

Cracking rotors, a POS gun, balky electronics, very low MBTF of major components....that's the Apache.

It's the B-1 of the US army. A hangar queen.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

I've read all the gripes of the Apache. My gut tells me it's still very solidified as a cold war weapon, made to endure European forest climates and fight cold war third echelon massed armor tactics; Marine Cobras have to endure the harsh sea climates on the boat; they're very durable. They are also excellent CAS platforms as they are nimble and have a very hard-to-hit fuselage.

Plus, in OEF, the Cobra's engines did alot better than the Apaches in the high altitude moutain climate.


The minute the Key West accords are broken the Army will build its own version of the A-10.

No offense trit, but your gut has never stood next to an Apache leaking all over the tarmac.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

Explain.

I thought i did.

They're hangar queens. Really.

I'm not making that up, the birds have so many problems it's ridiculous.

My personal favorite is the duct-taped rotor tips.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

<i>My personal favorite is the duct-taped rotor tips.</i>

A product from 3M for sand corrosion.

Leaking what?
Hydraulic fluid, oil, fuel... all three?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

* Maybe for the next helo, a nimble, semi-stealthy version of the Cheyenne that can bust out at over 300 mph - Cool!



Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 24 2004 12:08 AM

They leak everything.

The duct taped rotors have nothing to do with sand. They keep the perpetually cracked composite rotors from splitting the blade lengthwise.

They just have LOTS of problems.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

You guys were using the older T models, right? The new Z cobras have a slew more horsepower and a higher gross weight than the Delta Apache's. And of course the T model is a lot older than the D Apache to begin with. Really says something that the old Cobras 'flew as often as the Apaches', at least to me.

How many of those Apaches did they crash over there night flying? Wasn't it like 3 or something?....and they pulled them out before they flew a single combat sortie. Does that sound like a useful weapons system?

So while their readiness rate sucked for OIF, and was improved but still poor for ODS...in Bosnia they couldn't even get them into combat because they kept crashing.

At least i heard they finally got the gun to work right, lol. The older ones were total jammomatics.

This doesn't mean i'm spouting for the Commanche, it was so complex it would've been even more unreliable probably.......but flushing 10 billion by cancelling a program on the verge of being 'ready' is pure freaking stupidity. It COST an extra 2 billion in penalties just to cancel it. It's pretty ridiculous.

It will keep guys like A-10 stress working though, lol.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

yes the gun was fixed a long time ago.

Apache is getting new rotors very soon (no reason it's rotors would be any worse off than other composit rotors out there). IIRC MH-53s use a lot of "speed tape" but I aint sure.

The Clinton Bosnia debacle over the Apaches night crashes was because some of those crews had almost NO night training at all, it was reported at the time of the incidents. Plus I think Klinton was scared to death to send anything deep, in case they did get shot down and captured etc. He remembered the pics of what happened in Somalia being all over CNN.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

[quote]

How many of those Apaches did they crash over there night flying? Wasn't it like 3 or something?....and they pulled them out before they flew a single combat sortie. Does that sound like a useful weapons system?
------------

LongBow Apaches really suck up TLC. Never seen a breakdown on hours. The proof in the pudding is seeing the OH-58s getting whacked often. Hack had it right on the Apache, take off the gold plating and make it robust.

Z model Snake looks sweet. Is it a new aiframe or reworked old one?

If the Marines dump the Osprey. Perhaps they can get with the Army and get a serious buy of Z model Snakes and actually have new airframes built.

Damn Comanche was getting near 60 million a pop also.

I recall the nick of the Apache in the first Gulf War. Stealth Apache, because the damn radios weren't working often.

Any bets on what the next weapons system to be cancelled? Am going with Osprey. Marines should have an operational test of the SOB in Iraq or Afghan if they had any balls.

Jack

The problem with OH-58's Getting shwacked has really nothing to do with anything.

Were asking a Scoute to be the eyes and ears of a Guerrila Offensive in a Urban Area. It is not exactly a Shoot onthe Move Operation. This like other helicopters put them in a deadly engagement zone when low and slow over well hidden foes.

The Forward visibility of the OH-58 is what is really helping them out as well as being able to look down below them and allow the Copilot to use his M4 if needed. The apaches have been removed from the Urban mission and are being kept in a Strike and Convoy escort Role.

Oh-58s are the Stellar Helo scaout and security platform of choice. its about time the army recognised this highly valuable and underfunded community.


The AH1Z has undergone some signifigant changes. its Powerplant and Transmission system has been totally redesigned and shared wwith the UH1Y. Which is a major plus for the marine Corps. It really streamlines their Maint and logistics base with 2 highly proven systems.

I am doing some work with Bell related to the Ah1Zat the moment. let me tell you....WOW. this bird is a gold mine.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

[quote]

The Forward visibility of the OH-58 is what is really helping them out as well as being able to look down below them and allow the Copilot to use his M4 if needed. ------

LOL, reminds of Hueys in Nam and the Hughes 500 in the Scout role. They used anything. Hughes were used for trolling for bad guys with a couple of Snakes up high to roll in on their call.

Still my question is???? New airframes for Z models or???

Main reason I ask this. Navy built 50 new SH-2s and also modded 50 older ones. No clue if they actually installed new wiring for the modded ones either.

Yeah, heard the trannies can't always handle the power of the newer motors.

None Braver, Michael Hirsh. Very interesting book on PJ ops in Afghan and other ops. Those high altitude ops with choppers they could hear the birds groaning at max power. Nice piece on a Shadow Herc crashing. They were dragging a couple of MH-47s for inflight refueling and took a wrong turn in a Valley. Choppers were fine but the Herc crashed on top of a mountain. They walked with a couple of serious injuries. Real pilot nightmare, firewalled the power, right at stall speed and whammo at 85KIAS.

One really stellar moment, old Shadow Herc dropped down to refuel a MH-53 with a couple of minutes of fuel left.

Real kicker, Joint operations aren't so joint.

Still amazing to see after nearly 50 years the old Snake is still in real play. Nice solid airframe, robust and it keeps on trucking.

Jack

[quote]
Not sure on the new airframes or not - I thought I've read both or at least a mix, so I am confused as to this answer as well.
-------------

Yeah, have heard both and one dude claimed they were just using old airframes. Dunno if the Army would go on a big buy of Z models. If Marines and Army came up with a big enough buy, Bell would likely have to open up a production line for new airframes.

We just might have a AH-1AA downstream, ROFL.

Jack

<img src="http://www.kulikovair.com/Cobra.gif" border=0>

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