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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2004, 06:12 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Stress, what exactly does the new ground attack capabilities for the F-22 entail?

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I don't know. It is almost all in avionics and I am electronically challenged, as I fully admit. Probably new radar modes to find targets for small diameter bombs to plink.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2004, 07:03 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I'd like to see a hypthetical drawn up showing just how much the USAF would save if they cut ties to the JSF program right now and invested that R&D money into the F-22 instead. And when it came time to replacing current older F-16s they could just simply do so by buying new build, modern F-16E/F's!
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The F-22 isn't really a good bomb hauler. It can do some, but the F-35 is much better at it, on paper. Think of it like a comparison of the F-105 to the F-4 or the F-111 to the F-15. The F-22 would probably need a new wing, more fuel, and some weapon bay work to look good against the F-35. It would lose some air to air capability in the process (F-15C vs. E). F-16s are not comparable to the F-35 either in range/payload or avionics capability. The F-16 is about 2/3 the size, so it has less to work with. I guess we could settle for less. It's above my pay grade to make decisions like that.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2004, 09:02 
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Snipe, my point is the Raptor will be in small numbers no matter what. Currant(or rebuilt, new build) Eagles and Falcons will have to do some of it's job no matter what untill F-35 comes along. If F-35 goes belly up, EVERYBODY now using Harriers USMC RAF RNAF Spain Italy will have NO replacement. F-35 WILL go into production even if it doesnt work, the program has a worldwide momentum approaching that of a Terex Titan with a pan full of granit boulders.

The news groups have been going stark raving mad over arguments involving the Raptors GA ability. Some say it's "JDAM capable" while the detractors point out it hasnt dropped bomb one. The new (cheaper ) RADAR upgrades are supposed to have a SAR mode with a 12 inch resolution.
I'll see if I can find an article that makes sense and post it here.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2004, 14:48 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Snipe, my point is the Raptor will be in small numbers no matter what. Current(or rebuilt, new build) Eagles and Falcons will have to do some of it's job no matter what untill F-35 comes along. If F-35 goes belly up, EVERYBODY now using Harriers USMC RAF RNAF Spain Italy will have NO replacement. F-35 WILL go into production even if it doesnt work, the program has a worldwide momentum approaching that of a Terex Titan with a pan full of granit boulders.

The news groups have been going stark raving mad over arguments involving the Raptors GA ability. Some say it's "JDAM capable" while the detractors point out it hasnt dropped bomb one.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sorry to be late on this but I have a comment. If the F-35B goes belly-up, or when it gets so costly the poorer partners can not support it politically at home, they will make-do with something else. There are quite a few medium and light military jets in production that can help out. They will find that V/STOL or STOVL is not quite as good in reality as in their minds, and abandon it in a New York minute (what is that anyway?). It will be an attractive trade-off to be able to buy many more F-16's and have money left over to build several airports and bribe the usual suspects too.

And everybody keep cool on the JDAM thing. It's coming along. The t's are being dotted and the i's are being crossed. We'll be punching one out pretty soon.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2004, 22:04 
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I'm not sure what you have in mind to launch and recover on carriers for Spain Italy and the UK ?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2004, 00:49 
"The news groups have been going stark raving mad over arguments involving the Raptors GA ability. Some say it's "JDAM capable" while the detractors point out it hasnt dropped bomb one."

There's no reason whatsoever to expect that the F-22 won't be as good a JDAM platform as anything else that can drop em. JDAM is a simple system, the F-22 should be as precise using JDAMs as a B-2 would be. True it only carries two thousand pounders, but it can get them on target a lot faster than ANYTHING in the inventory with precision.

For a rapid reaction interdiction/strike/emergency CAS platform the F-22 should be mighty hard to beat by anything, even the Hog- and even limited to just the JDAM and gun.

The Hog certainly is a better CAS platform overall by a huge margin, but the F-22 can get iron on target FAST if there's a potential overrun situation. Also, because it will be restricted to 1,000lb JDAMs they'll be able to drop a lot closer than the BUFFs and Bones can when they act in the CAS role with the one ton JDAMs.

Looking at emerging battlefield targets, formerly known as targets of opportunity, a loitering F-22 can again use it's supercruise to great effect. Maybe if an F-22 drops those bombs on the first day of the war instead of a B-1 it gets there on time....Saddam dies on the first night of the war. Would've been helpful.

The A in F/A is real.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2004, 00:53 
"I'm not sure what you have in mind to launch and recover on carriers for Spain Italy and the UK ?"

One could probably make the argument that a Wasp LHD or Invincible CVS would be just as potent a combat unit with a deck full of Apache's or AH-1Zs as it would with a deck full of Harriers.

For one thing they can all carry a lot more helos than they can Harriers. For another since the withdrawal of the F.2 SHARs the Harrier offers little in the way of air defense, and for another the helos could forward deploy just like the harriers with similar range, and do almost all the same missions once they do, as well as a few missions the harrier can't.

Who says the USMC needs VTOLs? Not me.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2004, 09:22 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I'm not sure what you have in mind to launch and recover on carriers for Spain Italy and the UK ?
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I guess what I mean is that any nation that doesn't need to operate from ships should find another way, a land based way, to provide for their defense. Maybe Italy and Spain are in that category. In the case of the UK, they should just take the money they save by not buying STOVL's and build catapult and arresting gear ships. For example, if it costs $10 billion extra to develop the STOVL capable jet and it costs an extra $50 million a copy to buy each one, then you would have $50 million x 100 jets + $10 billion = $15 billion to spend on a new ship design/construction. It would cost more to operate the more capable ships but it would also cost more to operate STOVL's (in my opinion) so that would be a wash. They don't need to be supercarriers, but the increase in overall military utility would be massive because they could operate other types of aircraft, like AEW. There are probably many Royan Navy people that think it was a mistake to give up catapults/arresting gear.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2004, 10:50 
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Spain operates the Harrier II+ with the RADAR, one of the very first recipients of that model, dont know about Italy.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I guess what I mean is that any nation that doesn't need to operate from ships should find another way, a land based way, to provide for their defense. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

agree completely. STOVL is a specialty, a niche ability. Lots of flexability but limited in many ways. The UK was asking for the new carriers to be capable of BOTH STOVL and cat/traps, dont know what they have settled on IF they have decided at all.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2004, 11:08 
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The British would have time to change to convert to CTOL or cancel the RAF's new AVTs. The Italians should have thought before building a ship for an expirimental aircraft. The should have retained the Andrea Doria as an LHD. As for the Marines, six more helicopters would be more than Harriers. Leave the fixed wing aircraft to the Carriers, the CV JSF has a much great loiter time anyway.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2004, 12:06 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

And everybody keep cool on the JDAM thing. It's coming along. The t's are being dotted and the i's are being crossed. We'll be punching one out pretty soon.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I guess F/<b>A</b> is official. It was a JDAM from the main bay. More dramatic was an external tank airborne jettison. Progress is being made. Keep an eye out for press releases.

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PostPosted: 10 May 2004, 11:47 
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<i>Here's another reporter from an unknown newsletter that succeeds in confusing me. The facts are inconsistent with my memory, and he really lost me with the word "atavistic" in the fourth sentence. I think he means we should not "invest" in any weapons for the future since he has no idea how to use the "probable future dividends". Stop the economic metaphors! You are obviously no capitalist. I'm getting a migraine. You want the remaining money for something else, and it isn't better intelligence collection. What is it?</i>

The Sunk Cost Fallacy
05/10/04
Werther
CounterPunch, "America's Best Political Newsletter"


Las Vegas has become the fastest-growing major city in the United States because it exploits the sunk cost fallacy. Not being fools, casino managers fix the odds in favor of the house, which means that on average, gamblers consistently lose to the house. And they keep on losing.
Some atavistic trait in human psychology causes human beings to value a past investment of money, effort or some intangible quality (e.g., "credibility" or "face") independent of the investment's probability of paying future dividends. At its most primitive, the trait is what makes us reluctant to leave the interminable line at the DMV: the more time we've "invested," the less likely we are to leave, regardless of how much longer we still have to wait and regardless of whether we could spend that time more profitably and come back another day. It is stubbornness; it is also the sunk cost phenomenon at work.

When the F-22 began development in 1986, the Air Force projected a unit cost of $86 million. Eighteen years later, the unit cost is almost $300 million, and the plane is not yet in service. The U.S. taxpayer has "invested" some $41 billion to date and still not received any discernible dividend after nearly two decades. Meanwhile, the objective conditions influencing the probability of the investment paying dividends has changed radically.

First (although this may be news to the Pentagon and congressional defense committees) the Berlin Wall fell. The F-22 became another extravagant relic of a certain stage of industrial warfare, like railway artillery and the dreadnought. Second, the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 ought to have demonstrated the misplaced priority of shoveling tens of billions of dollars into cold war bric-a-brac like the F-22, the Seawolf submarine, and BMD. Washington's Iron Triangle had 8 years to prepare for 9/11; what fraction of the F-22's $41 billion could have bought improved intelligence collection on al Qaeda, more Arabic language translators, or improved border protection and immigration control?

In 1999, a defense committee did the unthinkable: it briefly denied production funds for the F-22 on the rationale that it was starving other needs. Predictably, Air Force officials disputed the committee's portrayal of the fighter's unit cost--at that point already $187 million. "They pointed out that USAF already has expended more than $20 billion, a third of total program funds, developing the fighter. By factoring out that sunk cost, one arrived at a far lower "to go" sticker price--$85 million per airplane." (1)

Equally predictable was the outcome: the Air Force prevailed. In so doing, it explicitly invoked the sunk cost argument, which was doubly fallacious because not only was it unrelated to potential dividends in a changed strategic environment, but it lowballed future development and production costs, thereby making the argument even more skewed. (2)

As a glance at the newspaper will reveal, politicians are now trying out new rationales to anesthetize public unease about the rising tab at the Great Mesopotamian Casino. The old bromides about WMD, a self-financing occupation, peace between Israel and Palestine, and the grateful acclaim of the liberated have for months elicited at best a polite cough behind the hand. And with the revelation of conditions at Abu Ghraib prison on every front page in the world, the pols' saccharine rhetoric about lifting up our little brown brothers in freedom's ways has turned rancid.

Fortunately for our governing class, the sunk cost argument lies ready: "We've come this far; there's no turning back." Taxpayers have committed $121 billion and military families a much heavier cost, but the U.S. government has not accomplished a single major prewar objective save deposing the senile Saddam Hussein. Nevertheless, marvelous benefits will accrue (no less than Changing the World) if we "stay the course" and don't "cut and run"--ominous slogans from Vietnam, another classic example of sunk cost rationales. Even more ominous, the president's 13 April press conference contains this: "As I have said to those who have lost loved ones, we will finish the work of the fallen." There, in embryo, is sunk cost--not in money, but in precious lives.

And where is the Loyal Opposition on this weighty issue? Showing his penchant for cutting-edge thinking, the Democratic presidential challenger has issued this breathtaking proposal: add more troops and delay the handover of Iraq to its ostensible owners. Like Bill Bennett in Vegas, his gambling strategy is to up the ante.

Now just where on earth do cynics get the idea that Democrats and Republicans are two heads of the same Hydra?

(1) "Battle of the F-22, " Air Force Magazine, September 1999.

(2) Tactical Aircraft: Changing Conditions Drive Need for New F/A-22 Business Case (GAO-04-391) is the most recent General Accounting Office analysis of F-22 costs.

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PostPosted: 11 May 2004, 08:40 
"Some atavistic trait in human psychology causes human beings to value a past investment of money, effort or some intangible quality"

Yeah, it's called common friggin' sense.

What the author(and the myriad other idiots that think like him) is saying is that because there is no clear superpower threat that we don't need dominant weapons systems.

This way, when a clear threat emerges we'll have nothing to counter said threat with.

Yep, excellent logic... <img src=newicons/idea.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/Whatever_anim.gif border=0 align=middle>

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 24 May 2004, 08:51 
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<i>This is probably some info dribbling out of operational testing. I would discount 50% any comparison with F-15s being made (good or bad) to account for editorial "spin" (i.e. rigging of the rules of engagement). Even so, I am satisfied that we have a good thing going here.</i>

<b>'Jester's Dead': F/A-22s Undefeated Against F-15Cs </b>(Posted: Saturday, May 22, 2004)
[Defense Daily, May 24, 2004]

Jester's Dead! The recent one-on-five engagement between a single F/A-22 and five F-15Cs from the 325th Fighter Wing at Tyndall AFB, Fla., lasted a grand total of three minutes--with the F/A-22 killing all five F-15Cs, Air Force Lt. Col. Mike Stapleton, operations officer for the 43rd Fighter Squadron, says. F/A-22 crews are presently undefeated against F-15C operators at Tyndall.

<b>...Jester Keeps Dying. </b>F-15C pilots at Tyndall continue to suffer lopsided losses to F/A-22 pilots in head-to-head engagements and even as F-15C crews fly more missions and gain familiarity with the F/A-22's abilities, they cannot land a glove on the latter. Brig. Gen. Larry New, the commander of the 325th Fighter Wing at Tyndall, explains that even though the F-15C pilots are learning, so are the F/A-22 crews, and they are able to further exploit their advantages--low observability and integrated avionics--to retain an upper hand.

<b>...Raptor Reloaded. </b>An F/A-22 preparing to take off for a flight at Tyndall took a few minutes later than expected because the pilot had to reboot the older 3.1.0 software, Stapleton says. One of the rules he has is that all systems have to function properly on an airplane before it takes off. Sometimes that means missions start a bit later than expected or don't come off at all. However, Stapleton says this software reboot issue won't be a problem as the newer software baselines arrive.

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PostPosted: 24 May 2004, 08:56 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>..Raptor Reloaded. An F/A-22 preparing to take off for a flight at Tyndall took a few minutes later than expected because the pilot had to reboot the older 3.1.0 software, Stapleton says. One of the rules he has is that all systems have to function properly on an airplane before it takes off. Sometimes that means missions start a bit later than expected or don't come off at all. However, Stapleton says this software reboot issue won't be a problem as the newer software baselines arrive. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


It's a ton better now than what it was for us 6 years ago...

It's really not even the same plane come to think of it...

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Edited by - mrmudd on May 24 2004 07:56 AM


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PostPosted: 24 May 2004, 12:17 
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Its Simple.

The f15's are trying to get to WVR, unfortunately, their being engaged so far away (classified) that they are way outside the engagement area typical BVR shot is taken against a Medium RCS aircrft.

Raptors have even got right up to the edge of WVR and attacked with no Detectability from the Eagles.

These F15s are also the JTIDS/FDL with shared engagement. Problem is with multiple scensory angles, nobody is able to detect, track and to relay and provide Terminal guidance for a BVR shot.

As far as BFM, yes plenty of that has been done before this testing.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader


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