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PostPosted: 17 May 2004, 11:45 
A10stress, i have recently been told that part of the JSFs weight woes were because LMs production facility has switched from a composite fuselage to one of aluminum.

Can you confirm this or shed any light on the subject?

Thanx.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

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PostPosted: 17 May 2004, 15:13 
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I am not signed in to the project so I have no inside info. The best I can figure is that the structural arrangement chosen for the production jets was inefficient because of producibility and commonality priorities (read cost directives). It is hard to believe all 3300 lbs of projected overweight is in the basic airframe. It is a huge number. Some must be in the engines and other equipment. Maybe some is extra fuel weight to keep range equal. Public domain sources have said that they have changed the configuration of major mate splices to go back to efficient ones. Presumably, this will have negative production cost implications. This has not gotten them the weights they need and they are doing more drastic internal redesign studies now. Let me give you my thoughts on the magnitude of those design studies. My own rule of thumb when going weight hunting is to identify at least twice the weight saving you need because the actual saving will be half the estimate. Accordingly, about six thousand pounds of savings must be ID'd. It would be an expectation to get 15% weight out of an item so to get 6000 lbs out you would have to redesign 6000/.15 = 40000 lbs of old inefficient airframe to new improved airframe. The whole airframe only weighs about 20000 lbs. now. Can you get there from here? At the very least you must get 15% out of the whole airframe. To the pessimist <b>All of it must be redesigned.</b> The optimist might say that the design criteria is too strict, so change that (e.g. 9 g's goes to 7.33 g's, 8000 hours goes to 6000 hrs, 800 mle radius goes to 650 mi, etc. )

The real scandal has yet to be debated in public. That is, why did we prototype this thing in order to prototype it again. The first flight schedule has not changed as they are building the overweight designs anyway, which will cripple performance of the Block 1 STOVL to less than the first prototype. Members of Congress and International partners are going to be justifiably angry. At least it will have all the offensive and defensive systems installed, I hope. They can fly it around the flagpole and learn what they can learn. Couldn't they have done that with the prototypes they had? People in high places may be looking for graceful exit strategies right now. I don't know. These numbers look like another sad data point in STOVL history.

I have not heard of the fall-back to aluminum you mentioned. Where did you hear that? That would be an indication of sanity. Aluminum structure is 1/2 the cost of composite to build. Titanium is also cheaper. Three quarters of the fuselage was probably metal anyway (by weight). Composite structure should only be used where it makes some sense. Main fuselage frames don't make sense in composites. Neither does engine bay stuff because of the heat and firewall requirements. Fuel tanks can be done, but it is a pain to impliment because of the survivability criteria. That leaves the external skins, longerons (maybe) and internal ducting as good candidates, along with minor bulkheads,frames and doors. Remember the source of this opinion, "Us", is a stress analyst. We like metal and rivets are our friends. "They" are probably accusing my Fort Worth stress associates of sabotaging the program by adding all the weight. My experience is that expert advice was probably ignored when the paper was blank because production cost and commonality were king then. At the beginning of the program they needed a small bunch of experienced, talented, motivated, team playing experts to get the job done. Now they need several hundred self sacrificing certified geniuses. Maybe they could hire some "idiot savants" that instinctivly know what to do, and do all the calculations in their heads. That would save the schedule. Alternatively they should do what I do, add a milestone to the Microsoft Project Schedule that says "and then a miracle happens", and just keep pushing that milestone to the right.



Edited by - a10stress on May 19 2004 05:35 AM

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PostPosted: 17 May 2004, 15:29 
Thanx stress.

Someone at another board advanced the idea of the aluminum stating that the LM plant charged with building them is not able to build composite structures of the sort needed, so instead used aluminum.

I have no idea if it's true. If you find out anything more, please do lemme know. :)



"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 17 May 2004, 16:40 
Here's where i heard about the aluminum switch...

"The overweight issue on the F-35 is not getting better and 2 bigshots on the program just got fired. Jim Engelland was Lockheed's Martin's Chief Engineer and John Fuller was the Air Vehicle Development lead until yesterday.
Seems the problem started when the JSF transitioned from Lockheed's Palmdale facility, which built the 2 X-35 demonstrators, to Fort Worth where the production airplanes are being developed. FW does not know how to build large scale composite structures (and doesn't want to learn), so FW redesigned the airframe out of aluminum. The JSF has become an F-35 shaped F-16 and is grossly overweight. The FW weight reduction solution is to remove frames and other structural members, which weaken the airframe. (This is the same kind of crap that plagued the F-22 program when it transitioned from Palmdale to Marietta in 1992 - we all know about the cost overruns and schedule slips on that program). We will have to wait and see how the politics shake out.

Do you have some links to (background) articles on this issue?.
Nope, no links on the firing because it hasn't hit the papers yet. Most companies do not announce firings, but do announce when people are hired to replace those fired. At present, no replacements have been named. The weight issue has a lot of Palmdale folks disgusted at Fort Worth's ability to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear.

That FW management allowed heavy aluminum structure is no suprise. They are likely trying to hide the fact that their facility is incompetent in design and fabrication of composite structures. Just ask the Japanese about their F-2 wings."

p214.ezboard.com/ffighter...2807.topic



"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 08:41 
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I can confirm that 2 executives were booted, and I think there is an effort to redesign with a lesser number of heavier frames, but the rest of that stuff sounds like BS. The Palmdale folks probably think they could have done a better job, but the fact is that it is much more difficult to design a successful production aircraft. It is more difficult because you must satisfy all criteria at once, not just up and away air vehicle performance for a partial envelope. The production F-35's must meet specs on everything from opening weapon doors at 800 KEAS to quick change engine times to 8000 hr airframe life. The actual aircraft details have to meet the RCS numbers, not just the pole model. The thing has to be able to be built on an assembly line. And all this has to come together at the price they agreed on. The prototypes could not achieve production spec requirements. That goes for the F-22 also. I am not a fan of prototyping for that reason. It just seems to add five years to the procurement process. But hey, "Fly Before Buy" is a catchy slogan isn't it?

FYI. Fort Worth makes a lot of composite structure for the F-22 center fuselage. The parts are pretty large in some cases and risky in composite but they pulled it off. They did all right on the weight and the parts are in production. That does not jive with the statement "FW does not know how to build large composite structures", so what gives? Maybe they subcontract it out, but they still get it done. I think this is leftover whining from the A-12 program 12 years ago. "Hide the fact that their facility is incompetent", give me a break. They are more likely attempting to keep the costs in line. It would not make sense, for instance, to triple the cost of a component in order to save 5% of the weight (unless the STOVL version can't VL, oops). Maybe aluminum was just a better choice. You can also save a lot of schedule time with metal design. I still think much of their overweight problem can be traced to compromises related to production efficiency combined with too much optimism in the target weights. "Just ask the Japanese about the F-2 wings", yeah, I'll get the straight dope there. Can't you just tell me, I'm afraid my Japanese is a little rusty. Sayonara.



Edited by - a10stress on May 18 2004 2:09 PM

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 10:54 
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as I recall the Lockheed wings were fine it was the Jap (mitsu?) wings that were cracking and delamming

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 12:56 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
as I recall the Lockheed wings were fine it was the Jap (mitsu?) wings that were cracking and delamming
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

All the composite parts I ever worked on, or observed from a safe distance, had manufacturing trouble. (Even metal bonded structure, but that's another story.) Disbonds, delaminations, wrinkles, uncontrolled proceeses and just bad final geometry are common problems. We just deal with it as a cost of doing business. The full depth honeycomb horizontal stabs on the F-22 were redesigned with mechanically fastened skins and stiffeners (black aluminum) because of chronic disbonds of the core.

Re: the F-2 wings. Does Lockheed build the left wing and Itchitushi the right wing, or is it the other way round? I'm not kidding. Odd as it sounds, I believe one company builds all of one side wings and the other company builds the opposite side. No doubt the result of bean counters dividing the work share.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 14:01 
Thanx again Stress.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-


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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 15:21 
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This is another thing that is bugging me.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The FW weight reduction solution is to remove frames and other structural members, which weaken the airframe.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


NO! The design study is to determine if a different structural arrangement will be lighter when carrying the same loads.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 15:32 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Re: the F-2 wings. Does Lockheed build the left wing and Itchitushi the right wing, or is it the other way round? I'm not kidding. Odd as it sounds, I believe one company builds all of one side wings and the other company builds the opposite side. No doubt the result of bean counters dividing the work share. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Which is a major mistake in outsource machining. Lessons learned and tolerenceing is not carried across uniformaly. It is always best to have the components under the same management and production machining working together. This alone would save an Extreme amount of production costs.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 15:54 
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And another thing...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This is the same kind of crap that plagued the F-22 program when it transitioned from Palmdale to Marietta in 1992 - we all know about the cost overruns and schedule slips on that program.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What "crap" is he talking about. "Are you talkin' to me? Well there's no one else here?". I am not aware of significant schedule slips that can be assigned to foul-ups in airframe design. We can be accused of being too slow and methodical, but maybe it has paid off by avoiding setbacks from "incidents". OK, we missed our weights by single digit percents, we made some bad material selections (HIP cast titanium) and we have some annoying problems left, but I can point to an amazing success or two. The static test program has proven out the airframe strength without a single failure. I am amazed. We are not geniuses, and I can report that it sure is better to be lucky than good. It is even more amazing that we have had no aeroelastic "flutter" incidents or control suprises with the clean aircraft. Kudos to the flutter engineers. They have cleared about 99% of the envelope, and it's a big envelope by golly. The IOT&E pilots are really working the airplane now. I have no news, but I bet they are having a good time. As you can see I can hardly contain my pride in the achievements of my associates. I started this soliloquy talking about crap. Let me end it that way too. To all you critics out there I want to say "The F-22 is the poo, just take a big whiff"





Edited by - a10stress on May 19 2004 05:33 AM

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PostPosted: 18 May 2004, 18:03 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Re: the F-2 wings. Does Lockheed build the left wing and Itchitushi the right wing, or is it the other way round? I'm not kidding. Odd as it sounds, I believe one company builds all of one side wings and the other company builds the opposite side. No doubt the result of bean counters dividing the work share.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

they at leaste started out building one side each but I dont remember which side either, just that the Lockheeds were ok. Dont know if the Japs are building both sides now or not.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 19 May 2004, 06:56 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Which is a major mistake in outsource machining. Lessons learned and tolerenceing is not carried across uniformaly. It is always best to have the components under the same management and production machining working together. This alone would save an Extreme amount of production costs.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I had composite assemblies in mind when I started my tirade, but I can't stop myself from agreeing with you on this too. Even though the drawings are supposed to describe the parts so that anyone can build them, two vendors never build the exact same parts. It seems that a vendor just gets the bugs out of his process when the parts are re-bid. Naturally, another company low bids to get the work and they go through a learning process too. The way the rules are written, we must give it to the lowest bidder that is qualified. We just keep salvaging the parts we can until they get the quality up. Then they re-bid it again and start all over. Your point really hits home when two vendors are building the exact same part (theoretically) and each one says it is impossible to produce a detail the other one is already demonstrating. It is frustrating to change a drawing in response to one vendors whining and that change causes the other one to whine.

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PostPosted: 20 May 2004, 07:32 
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<b>NG Begins Work on JSF Center Fuselage</b> (Posted: Thursday, May 20, 2004)
[Antelope Valley Press, May 19, 2004]

By ALLISON GATLIN
Valley Press Staff Writer

PALMDALE - The first pieces of the next generation of fighter aircraft and fighter aircraft manufacturing are coming together in the massive hangar at Air Force Plant 42, the birthplace of an earlier generational leap in aerospace technology, the B-2 stealth bomber.
Northrop Grumman's Antelope Valley Manufacturing Center is beginning production of the center fuselage for the F-35 joint strike fighter, using revolutionary new manufacturing techniques.

"It's a very major leap forward in technology," said Steve Briggs, Northrop Grumman vice president and F-35 program manager, of the new tools being employed to build the cutting-edge fighter...


The new technology is drawing the next generation of engineers to the program. Northrop Grumman aggressively recruits on college campuses to bring in the skilled work force it needs.

"We drain colleges," said Ed Linhart, Lockheed Martin vice president of F-35 production operations, recruiting hundreds of newly minted engineers to the industry.

"They take to these new design tools like fish to water," Briggs said.

The aircraft under construction in Palmdale will be the first 14 test planes, part of the initial development of the F-35. The joint strike fighter will be modified as adjustments are made in response to flight testing of these early vehicles.

Some of those adjustments may have to do with reducing the aircraft's final weight, an issue that has begun to dog engineers as the F-35's design has progressed...

<b>The X-35, however, was a concept demonstrator to prove the technologies, not a prototype of the fighter. Additional engineering and designing has been needed to come up with the operational design.

As the numerous operational systems have been added to the basic airframe, designers have encountered problems in exceeding the weight limit for the airframe.

At this early stage of the program - the third year of a 12-year development process - the problem is only an estimation, based on computer models and predictions of what the components actually will weigh, Lockheed Martin spokesman Smith said.

"That puts us in a great place, because we're so early in the program," he said. Such weight issues are typical of aircraft development programs, but usually don't appear until flying hardware is ready. This time, the problem was identified much earlier, thanks to the sophisticated design tools being used, officials said.</b>

The first F-35 flight is expected in 2006, and the aircraft are expected to enter operation in approximately 2012. Flight testing will take place at Fort Worth, Edwards Air Force Base and Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md...

"Commanders in the field want an airplane that not only works but is cheap to operate," said Marine Col. John Rader, director of systems engineering for the JSF Program Office.

The commonality across armed service lines is intended to cut costs and make the aircraft easier to support.

The F-35 has common "guts" in the three versions, with variations to meet the needs of the individual services, Rader said. Approximately 70% of the aircraft is common to all three versions.

With the conventional take-off version as the basic design, the carrier version has the slightly larger wings and sturdier landing gear required for carrier landings.

The short take-off-vertical landing version is probably the most different, with a unique lift-fan system to provide the vertical thrust needed. The body of this version is slightly fatter to accommodate the lift fan. It also has the least range of the three versions, because the lift fan system takes the space that would be used by internal fuel tanks. However, the 450 nautical-mile range is still twice as far as the Harrier it would replace.

<b>"We've had some real challenges in keeping that commonality," Rader said. "That's part of keeping it affordable - make lots of them and make them alike."</b>

Even with the variations, flexible tooling will allow the same assembly lines to manufacture all the parts. Common features include weapons, avionics, the same basic engine and similar flight envelopes, Rader said. The fighters will have a range of 450 to 600 nautical miles, a 1.6 Mach speed limit and stealthy characteristics.

"All of the services are clamoring for replacements of their older aircraft," which are becoming more and more expensive to maintain, he said.

The Air Force eventually intends to purchase 1,763 of the conventional take-off version to complement the F/A-22 Raptor and replace the F-16 and A-10.

The Navy has plans to purchase 680 of the carrier and short take-off-vertical landing version. These would complement the F/A-18E/F in the Navy's arsenal and replace all fixed-wing aircraft for the Marine Corps.

The United Kingdom, the primary foreign partner, expects to purchase 150 of the same version for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force to replace the Sea Harrier and GR-7.

More than 2,000 additional aircraft are expected to be purchased by the program's other foreign partners, Rader said.

Nine countries have joined the United States in supporting the joint strike fighter program in varying degrees.

The United Kingdom has the highest level of involvement. Other countries involved in the design are Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Australia. Israel and Singapore have signed on at a lower level of involvement.

Sharing a common weapons system among allies will allow for true joint operations in the future, Rader said.



<i>This is more Pollyanna news coming from a company cheerleader that is depressing to the people actually trying to make this thing work. Draining colleges of bright students will not acheive success. Those people need leadership from "Graybeards" who have been there and done that. Otherwise, they will go over old ground and use up precious time and money learning hard lessons.

At least they are showing the trial baloon - "The X-35, however, was a concept demonstrator to prove the technologies, not a prototype of the fighter". The Congress needs to be educated that the prototypes were not anywhere near the weapons of war the F-35 should be. It might soften the news that they are doing a second prototype now, and it is not a useful weapon either.

Everyone can see that Commanders in the field need things that are simple and cheap to operate, but they have to be effective too. The F-35B is none of those things, and may never be considering how they are going about it.

There are normally three sets of books kept on airframe weight. They are the parametric or "estimated", the "calculated", and the "actual". These books are monitored by senior management on a daily basis during detail design. The estimated is used as a target weight during detail design so everyone knows how they are doing relative to the "calculated". The calculated value is based on released drawings of parts that everyone agrees should function as required. Modern electronic tools (i.e. CATIA) make this calculation somewhat easier but it has always been done as accurately as possible, taking into account every little detail including sealant, fasteners, shims etc. The actual weights are the measured weight of the "as built" flight hardware part, which should be real close to the calculated if the weights engineers are doing their job. It is a misleading statement to say that the F-35 program has more accurate weights earlier in the program so they have more time to fix it compared to other programs. I don't see how that could be true. I ask you, is it reasonable to say that you won't know you are 15% overweight until the aircraft is built when there are billions of $$ at stake. That's not reasonable for a P-47 much less an F-35.

Now here is the depressing part. They have not yet acknowledged that commonality must be sacrificed to save this program. Commonality is the noose around their necks that is getting tighter and tighter. They are finding out that the engineering, manufacturing and equipment required in the STOVL to make it work are very expensive. To preserve commonality, the other versions are stuck with expensive things they can't afford and don't need. The leverage of "make a lot of them and make them all the same" is working in reverse. The program will be more expensive if commonality with the STOVL is enforced, not less. Either way, the projected cost of the program is in error by a wide margin. They are stuck with a flawed management philosophy that sold the program in the first place. I don't see a face saving way out of this mess.</i>








Edited by - a10stress on May 20 2004 5:24 PM

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"This is more Pollyanna news coming from a company cheerleader that is depressing to the people actually trying to make this thing work. Draining colleges of bright students will not acheive success. Those people need leadership from "Graybeards" who have been there and done that. Otherwise, they will go over old ground and use up precious time and money learning hard lessons."

How right you are stress!!!!!!!!! Much of US industry is taking a similar path even as jobs go overseas. Where I work its implied, if not outright explicity said, that history, experience and horse sense are not welcome. Leadership at the lead-person/supervisor level and up is non-existent. From there to the top is constant butt-kissing, boot-licking and only saying what the person above you wants to hear. The "blame game" along with arrogance and ignorance are the rules of the day. Needless to say, being the iconoclast I am, that "hatefully" is not too strong a word for the way Im treated. Even skill and knowledge are held in disdain if the person having them tells it like it is. Its crazy but Im told this paradigm is "everywhere" now. I respond with "Im not everywhere, Im here. If the rest of the world is screwed up thats not a good enough reason for us to be!!!" LOL Sorry for the rant gang.LOL


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PostPosted: 20 May 2004, 22:06 
That gentleman, is why i'm self employed.

The only asshole i have to answer to is MINE. :)

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

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PostPosted: 25 May 2004, 05:48 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Where I work its implied, if not outright explicity said, that history, experience and horse sense are not welcome. Leadership at the lead-person/supervisor level and up is non-existent. From there to the top is constant butt-kissing, boot-licking and only saying what the person above you wants to hear. The "blame game" along with arrogance and ignorance are the rules of the day. Needless to say, being the iconoclast I am, that "hatefully" is not too strong a word for the way Im treated. Even skill and knowledge are held in disdain if the person having them tells it like it is. Its crazy but Im told this paradigm is "everywhere" now. I respond with "Im not everywhere, Im here. If the rest of the world is screwed up thats not a good enough reason for us to be!!!" LOL Sorry for the rant gang.LOL
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

There, there Rick. It's OK. Let it all out. We are here for you.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> And what's an iconoclast? It has been too long since I took the SAT. My vocabulary is sub par.

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"One who destroys religious images or opposes their veneration; one who attacks established beliefs or institutions..."

Damn, I believe I've found one of my problems with integrating into society while submitting to another...

Next word of the day: "recalcitrant."

I don't just think outside the box...I turn it inside out with my mind.


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I see I am not an iconoclast, but I may be recalcitrant. It sounds painful. Are there any effective medications for that malady?

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PostPosted: 25 May 2004, 10:59 
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Budweiser

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Not Guiness Mudd? LOL

"face it....perhaps your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others!"


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Im too lazy to take my retired ass to the duty free tore, thats what your for...LOL Guess i better get on yahoo at a convieniant hour and make another order. By the way what has sparticus been up too? The ex ACC king still Struting in the Golf tournements?

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Joined: 11 Dec 2002, 10:13
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I think I heard something about Sparticus looking up frogfoot for a road trip, I could be wrong though. He has been strangely quiet lately.....I think that happens when he is thinking in the 3rd person. <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

"face it....perhaps your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others!"


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PostPosted: 26 May 2004, 14:41 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
Posts: 2802
I'll have to give that old senile bastard a call.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader


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PostPosted: 27 May 2004, 21:50 
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Joined: 27 May 2004, 21:50
Posts: 3
I hear that the Britsh are considering scrapping their verson of the JSF in lieu of the F-35C variant, and a re-commitment to conventional carriers.



Edited by - God on May 27 2004 8:51 PM


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