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Look....seems to me some of the "new" people (only a couple hundred posts or so) don't seem to think it's as important as some of us "old" folks....so lets hear some opinions....

I would especially like opinions from my fellow mods...M&M, M21 Sniper, Hawg166 what do ya'll think?

I may over react at times, but I'd rather over react & the info not be posted...than to let it freely flow & something end up happening because of it...

Anyways...we seem to go through this atleast once a year...someone says OPSEC & 20 other people jump on the band wagon about this isn't OPSEC, that isn't OPSEC....we get pissed at eachother, "yell" a little, then move on...so lets agree to disagree (from time to time) and just move on....

<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

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Easy, when in doubt direct them to an openly published source. Otherwise, the people that have signed their paperwork should know when to not divulge information, and if they are releasing sensitive information it's obvious they're a security risk anyway and need to be real-world spanked by the proper authorities. The whiners can whine, as no one is under any obligation to tell them anything.

In all honesty, though, it's not like anybody but the Chinese or Russians could actually make use of much of this, but if there are realworld examples to the contrary, then I stand corrected.

I don't just think outside the box...I turn it inside out with my mind.

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Look....seems to me some of the "new" people (only a couple hundred posts or so) don't seem to think it's as important as some of us "old" folks....so lets hear some opinions....

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I think OPSEC is very important, but at the same time, one should use good judgement to know what can be posted and what can't.

Examples of judgement:

I wouldn't discuss the tactics we use in the air to accomplish certain missions. That kind of real-world knowlege is something that doesn't need to be known by people that don't use it.

I wouldn't discuss deployed ops...types/numbers, etc. Again, real world and here/now info that, though unclassified, is probably not wise to openly advertise. I'd even throw unit info into the the same bag of "not discuss", even though the AF publically advertises what units show where during deployments (at least they did with the unit that replaced us during our last deployment). I don't think that's too smart myself, but that's what the AF did.

But the problem is when everyone is treated like an idiot 3-level, and not trusted to use their own judgement. To take what prcki was saying, to the extent he was saying it, then logically speaking, there'd be nothing we could talk about on this board, without it being an OPSEC issue. Here's some examples of this asinine, paranoid, way of thinking:

Some "Hog Pen" topics:

Hawgsmoke 2004 trip report: What? Why are you advertising that A-10s were at England airpark when they were there and what they were doing there? That's info a terrorist could use.


What is this?: We shouldn't be discussing the airflow fins that are on the jet. Who knows what kind of info could be garnered from that from outside sources.

Picture: Why is someone describing what the ammo loader for the A-10 looks like? We shouldn't be discussing that here.

....and other asinine examples like that. Also take a look about stuff discussed in the USN forum, wouldn't all that be considered OPSEC, under your definition? That's where I'm going with this. People on this web board should have the smarts enough to know what is truly OPSEC and what is not.

Of course, the only response I got from prkii during my last description was a bunch of rolleyes, which I don't think is that professional of an example from a moderator, nor someone that represents the forum owner.

Just my take. Like I say, I've been around a long time in the AF, not as long as Dice, but longer than prikki, and I know what's up with OPSEC. I know what is and what isn't OPSEC, and I know how to use good judgement. Heck, having used to fly these things for a living, there's all kind of real OPSEC info that shouldn' be discussed rather than some of the stuff some people seem to be having heart attacks over.

Now, can I expect a more professional discussion other than a "blah, blah, blah" response from someone that's supposed to be a professional moderator, or is that too much to ask from an NCO type?

Not trying to be a smart-ass, but just pointing out some contridictions I'm seeing around here.

Hogpen said:
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"I really don't think talking aircraft tail number location is such a good idea...If the AF want people to know where all the aircraft were it would be posted on the AF website.
In fact after 9/11 the tail numbers of aircraft at AMARC were removed form their site, must have been a reason for that...sorry Shuck."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

OK, fair enough. But why then, prkiii, do we have pics of your a/c 981 from Willow Grove model. And are we allowed to post pics of any A-10 here unless it's sanitized? Otherwise, we'd be going against what Hogpen posted.

And in your post about Pennsylvania's "Let's Roll" jet, there was this:

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I forgot that we had a "Let's Roll" jet. Our Wing/Squadron standard is to have the AIM-9 DRA on station 11, and the ECM pod (which, from the pictures, looks like a ALQ-119, not the ALQ-131 that we use) on station 11.

Other than that, nice to see one of our jets in the Armour collection.
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Wouldn't that info be OPSEC by your own definition? Not trying to slam on Thunderstruck or anything, just using his example.

I'm just honestly trying to understand what is and what isn't OPSEC by your definition.

I think this is coming to a head of. For all of us Current. Former, Enthusiests. That are from so man differnt facits of the Defense sector and units. that the best thiing to do is post the latest security rulings on the site and always reference it as ou guid to the domain we travel and discuss.

On many boards Privacy is maintained by simply having a simple private forum for Militay people that is verifiable to their status. I recommended this in the past when we had some military vs Civillian clashes.

It is obvious that we wish to have a direct dialogue with our Supporters, enthusiests and the general public as well as Supporting and bonding with our fellow warriors.

It htink it has come to the time with all the differing opinions. We utilise a Security bullitin with the Current Rullings From HQ USAF and other agencies, and that we have a restrictive "military Forum" that is private, and this would allow us to be better supportive of each other and not bring this to a Combative level of dialogue.


Their is allot of good to this discussion, and that is simply The concerns voiced are the ones of people concerned on the safety of others.

There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be upset with each other. We can do our Warrior bonding in private and our Community resource in public with a simple guidbook to follow.

Just my thoughts.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

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Their is allot of good to this discussion, and that is simply The concerns voiced are the ones of people concerned on the safety of others.

There is absolutely no reason for any of us to be upset with each other. We can do our Warrior bonding in private and our Community resource in public with a simple guidbook to follow.

Just my thoughts.

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Very fair argument. I'm not trying to create any problems around here, just trying to understand the OPSEC policy as it pertains to around here. And that's fine too. In that regard, I'm trying to understand why I see stuff warned against as OPSEC here, but in other posts, see the same, or "worse" stuff (by their definition) is posted on the forum and it's OK and left there. I'm simply trying to look for some sort of standard around here, that's all.

Agreed, Type 7, you have always been a great friend to me and others personally and professionally. You have never had a Low drag fall short on anyone here. The problem we are all having to deal with stems from the fact, we all come from so many areas of the defense sector in Both active military and in Military contractor status, many of us in both realms.

Its easy to see and follow our day to day bidding on the job. But Some entities see things differntly. This is the source of the Clash. Differnt eras of service and differnt command obligations

It would be best to use an official Security Bullitin from all services, and to discuss in a private forum. IF we need guidnace in how best to respond to an open public discussion.

We cant Fault the Mods For their Totalitarian rulings. They need to have that empowerment. After allot of the Bullshit we as a community have been subjected to due to some Asshats that have visitied this site. they have had to unleash and protect our domain.

Counsel is always beneficial to prevent Guys like me that are fully capable of taking the fight and destroying an advesary from makeing a bigger ass out of myself than the perp that set off the alert horn.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Edited by - mrmudd on May 26 2004 09:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just my take. Like I say, I've been around a long time in the AF, not as long as Dice, but longer than prikki<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Ok...I'm sure you are right (and the names prkiii, not prikki)...seeing as how for one I am no longer (and haven't been for almost 6 years now) in the USAF, I am now a GS-11 Quality Assurance Spec/Lead Analyst at Robins AFB. I only served 4 years on active duty, got out because I didn't want to put my fiancée at the time through constant deployments & me always being gone...(which is besides the point). So I have a total of almost 10 years active duty & Civil Service OPSEC "experience". BUT, (and before someone bashes this, I know it's different) I'm an Air Force brat, lived overseas as a dependent, and have had some type of OPSEC in my life for 28 years. Am I an expert, nope, do I make mistakes, yup & I'll be the first to admit it. Do I have double standards, I try not to, but when you read through as many posts a day as I do sometimes (and I miss some too) things are going to get overlooked....If I'm overruled by the majority, so be it, I'm not a total a*&hole...the people that know me know how I am, and served with a few of the people on these boards. Anyways, ya'll just post whatever you want, I'm not going to sit & argue with you about it anymore.....I'll just "mod" from the shadows & peak out from time to time...I'll let Snipe decide what stays & what goes...less of a headache on my anyways….I don’t have to mod these boards, I do it because of my “love” for the Hog & how much I miss working the old girl...gives me a little satisfaction knowing that I can stay in contact with current and former hog maintainers, pilots, and enthusiasts alike...

So…now that I’m done with that…..Type 7…no hard feelings, I may have “typed” some things I shouldn’t have, or could have worded a little better, and “rolling my eyes” was childish (still a kid at heart, and it creeps out at times)…no hard feelings?

What kind of beer do you like? I’ll get the first round...<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>


<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - PRKIII on May 26 2004 10:39 AM

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Prkii,

My apologies for writing your handle wrong, just a result of quick typing. I appreciate your response, partner, and I didn't mean to come off as sarcastic, nor try to start any problems here. I could've stated my case better than I did too. I can understand that your job as moderator isn't easy with all the posts you have to go through, stuff you have to watch, and fires you may have to put out. I sympathize. I know the concern here for posting of potentially sensitive information, and I fully agree with it. I was just unclear as to what was game here on the site and what wasn't, because I was seemingly seeing things that couldn't be posted, and other similiar stuff that was being posted. Whatever the policy is, I will follow it as stated, mainly because I consider myself as a proverbial "guest in the host's living room" here on the board; and will follow the house rules accordingly. I'm certainly not here to be anyone's enemy, nor make people upset. I enjoy the varying content of the forum here, and enjoy the diversity that everyone posts from.

Prkii, I appreciate your candor and response to my post. I extend my hand in peace as well, and would enjoy a beer with a fellow or former mil brother any day.

Regards,

Mike

I grant the authority to each and every mod to remove/delete topics and or posts that they feel are sensitive in nature.

It's a judgement call. If any mod feels a topic is operationally sensitive, they may feel free to delete it.

However, if it is info that can be found anywhere in the public domain it is not OPSEC sensitive, as it's already acknowledged information.

To me, true areas of OPSEC involve operational details(Which is why i've never gone into any specific detail about the methodology or actual capabilities of a US sniper team), classified systems capabilities(range, slew limit of a weapon, etc, etc, etc), and classified unit deployments/readiness rates.

Pretty much anything else is fair game. In the end, i leave it up to those that i have entrusted as moderators to make sure we don't give Haji, Ivan, or China Joe anything they can use.

If anyone isn't sure(mod or poster alike), and wants me to take a look at a particular thread or post, just email me and i will check it out at my soonest convenience.


"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-

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Prkii,

My apologies for writing your handle wrong, just a result of quick typing. I appreciate your response, partner, and I didn't mean to come off as sarcastic, nor try to start any problems here. I could've stated my case better than I did too. I can understand that your job as moderator isn't easy with all the posts you have to go through, stuff you have to watch, and fires you may have to put out. I sympathize. I know the concern here for posting of potentially sensitive information, and I fully agree with it. I was just unclear as to what was game here on the site and what wasn't, because I was seemingly seeing things that couldn't be posted, and other similiar stuff that was being posted. Whatever the policy is, I will follow it as stated, mainly because I consider myself as a proverbial "guest in the host's living room" here on the board; and will follow the house rules accordingly. I'm certainly not here to be anyone's enemy, nor make people upset. I enjoy the varying content of the forum here, and enjoy the diversity that everyone posts from.

Prkii, I appreciate your candor and response to my post. I extend my hand in peace as well, and would enjoy a beer with a fellow or former mil brother any day.

Regards,

Mike


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Glad we got sh*t straight....see...it's like I said...we argue then it all gets fixed...lol...I think our main problem was trying to get across what we truly ment...which is a pain in the a$# sometimes on the net...

<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

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Like deleting my post?

Jackass's <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Edited by - mrmudd on May 26 2004 9:12 PM

Wasn't me mudd. Someone else zapped ya bro, lol.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-

Nazi's every god damn one of ya <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

I've never deleted any of your posts either Mudd...some people you just don't mess with <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

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God Help ya, If i hold Dice's Beer Fridge hostage. Ive been known to whole up in his garage. I'll make it look like an accident!

Remember the Thirst you save may be of someone you know Commies!

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

I'm a little late on this one but, I try to only post things, both here and on my site, I know are on public web sites somewere (like the Hawgsmoke info) and can post the sites URL if asked to.

OPEC/COMSEC is a personal call and I don't belive any "rules" can be posted which would define them so there would be no confusion.

I guess my personal "pet peeve" is the posting of aircraft tail numbers, locations, and mod number. Is this an OPSEC issue or not I'm not sure but, just something I feel the "person on the street" doesn't need to know.

Type7 you say we can all make our own calls in OPSEC/COMSEC but does that mean others can't question a item posted? If you don't belive it's an issue then you are still free to post the info if you still belive it's OK.

I do agree we need to keep it professionl and not make insults to each other..that includes sarcastic remarks.





<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>

This bulletin board software lets you do stickies, right? If this comes up often enough, perhaps a sticky thread would help. As well as showing official policy on OPSEC, I'm sure several people here would put in links to official sites to be linked to as verification or some such. Sound worth it?

"Some pup"
Nickname by Fenderstrat72

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Evil is evil, no matter how small.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This bulletin board software lets you do stickies, right? If this comes up often enough, perhaps a sticky thread would help. As well as showing official policy on OPSEC, I'm sure several people here would put in links to official sites to be linked to as verification or some such. Sound worth it?

"Some pup"
Nickname by Fenderstrat72
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Sounds good to me...Snipe...what do you think???

<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

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I don't know if we can do stickies, lol.

I am about as computer illiterate a site administrator as you'll ever see.

I'll try and figure it out, but i don't think we have stickies.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

Kipling-

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Type7 you say we can all make our own calls in OPSEC/COMSEC but does that mean others can't question a item posted?
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I fully agree that others should be able to question if they see something that's potentially wrong, whatever that may be. We mil people should all cover each others backs.

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I do agree we need to keep it professionl and not make insults to each other..that includes sarcastic remarks. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Agreed. I'm definately guilty of busting this one. We live and learn.

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Glad we got sh*t straight....see...it's like I said...we argue then it all gets fixed...lol...I think our main problem was trying to get across what we truly ment...which is a pain in the a$# sometimes on the net...

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Good suggestion you had for us to pick a fight in order to up the forum traffic for a few days, LOL! It worked.

Yeah, it's sucks when we can't "see" each other when typing. No worries.

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I fully agree that others should be able to question if they see something that's potentially wrong, whatever that may be. We mil people should all cover each others backs.
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I want you guys to remember I'm retired (well 1 Aug 04) and no longer have a "need to know" so if I ask questions you don't feel comfortable with speak-up...it wount hurt my feelings...Well, maybe it will but I will get over it! <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Agreed. I'm definately guilty of busting this one. We live and learn.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

We have all done it and will more-than-likly do it again! We talk, we argue, then we get over it! <img src=newicons/pain10.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>



Edited by - Hogpen13 on May 28 2004 6:09 PM

Hogpen. You have no need to know.. If you need to we will tell you...untill then stand down...Have a Beer...Hit the Bait n Tackle Shop...write your book.....Drink a Beer...Call Mudd...Tell him hes a jackass...then lets Go Fish!


Take it sleazy dude!

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hogpen. You have no need to know.. If you need to we will tell you...untill then stand down...Have a Beer...Hit the Bait n Tackle Shop...write your book.....Drink a Beer...Call Mudd...Tell him hes a jackass...then lets Go Fish!


Take it sleazy dude!

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

<img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/tard.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>