WT Forums

Trumping the F-15

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper has said for years that USAF pilots flying the latest Russian-made fighters can beat USAF pilots flying the service’s F-15. Now, it seems that Indian Air Force pilots can, too.

That was one of the eye-opening outcomes of Cope India 2004, held earlier this year. It showed that a current Russian fighter flown by well-trained Indian pilots can best a front-line USAF fighter.

More to the point, it was graphic evidence that USAF can ill afford any more delay in bringing the F/A-22 into service.

The 3rd Wing, stationed at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, took its F-15Cs to India for a few rounds of dissimilar air combat training. Those F-15Cs are the best equipped in the Air Force, featuring new long-range, high-resolution radars. When the exercise was over, the Indian Air Force pilots had triumphed in many of the engagements.

Details of the exercise remain classified, according to an Air Force spokesperson. However, industry and service officials report that the Indian pilots flying Su-30MKs and the American pilots in their F-15s were able to spot each other on radar at about the same time. The Indian pilots frequently took the first simulated shots and won a number of dogfights.

Another suprise was the quality of training the Indian pilots received. USAF fighter pilots log about 250 flight hours a year. The Indian fighter pilots said they’ve been getting as many as 300 flying hours per year and that the majority of those hours was spent in full-up combat training.

In most USAF aerial combat training, the service has “dumbed down” adversarial equipment and training to simulate what it believed to be the level of the enemy competence. The Indian Air Force aircrews, on the other hand, practice at full capability against their best fighter aircraft and pilots.

Cope India proved that older aircraft, such as MiG-21s, upgraded with sophisticated new avionics and missiles, can pose a formidable challenge.

Air Force officials noted that in nearly every exercise, the 3rd Wing aircrews were outnumbered, usually 2-to-1. That would be typical in many combat situations. The Air Force expects to deploy a limited number of fighters on short notice to austere fields.

For the USAF pilots to achieve air superiority over the IAF pilots, they would have needed a stealthy fighter—to deny the adversary a first-shot advantage—as well as a longer-range radar and the ability to coordinate data from a variety of offboard sensors. Those qualities reside in the F/A-22, which is expected to enter operational service next year.

The Air Force is also reportedly rethinking whether it will continue to dumb down adversaries in air combat training exercises, given the quality of the pilots encountered during Cope India.





Notice that the USAF was outnumbered "usually two to one".

Also note that the USAF may have a training problem by dumbing down the opposition. How soon we forget to train like we fight ie as if your life depends on it. Because it does.

When I was in submarines many, many years ago the more thoughtful of us had to fight the same tendency. We forced ourselves to expect the USSR to be better motivated, experienced, equipped and trained than us. It paid valuable dividends when we were actually out there at the tip of the spear.

The fight is actually about battling ignorance, arrogance, over-confidence, complacency and boredom.

AS for equipment. The services have been routinely chastised for over-estimating the oppositions hardware. The result over the last coupla decades or so is that we now find ourselves at a serious(Especially NAVAIR) disadvantage in some areas.

There is as you can see from above no substitute for locating the enemy first AND releasing weapons first. Hesitation is death. A hard lesson I first learned in Damage Control trainers.

Its also been my experience that we actually do learn more from our failures than our successes. No matter how painful those failures its much better to learn our limitations during training than in actual combat.


As for the constant battle the USAF has to wage to justify the cutting-edge F/A-22 maybe in the long-run it will turn out to be a good thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I dunno about that one...Not many fighters can out turn an F-18, I wouldn't call the F-18's turning radius wide by any means.

wow, who makes up this stuff?


"The 3rd Wing, stationed at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, took its F-15Cs to India for a few rounds of dissimilar air combat training. Those F-15Cs are the best equipped in the Air Force, featuring new long-range, high-resolution radars."

"Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically scanned array radar."
WELL? which is correct?





"Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio"
HUH?
F-15C..empty TTW:1.70 Half fuel half missles:1.3
SU-27S.empty TTW:1.53 Half fuel half missles:1.16


"The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners"

??? F/A-18 has almost NO turning radius! lol very close to MiG-29 but the MiG has much more thrust, the Flanker cant match either of them for radius.


"Hornburg said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15, but the F/A-18 also has greater range and speed than the Air Force's existing fighters."
I dont know about range (F-15C internal fuel is 13000lb+ with F/A-18 at 10,000+ with vastly different engines) but SPEED? what are they smokin <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Notice that the USAF was outnumbered "usually two to one".

MKI is a nice plane with good avionics and the helmet mounted sight, but this seems more like a photo-op for Raptor $$$ than anything else.


"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

The Elmsdorf Eagles are the best we have, equipped with the -229 P&W engines and APG-63(V)2 AESA radars.

Make no mistakes, the Indian MkIs OWNED the Eagles.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

Does the entire F-15C force operate under G restrictions because of airframe fatigue? Makes me wonder if the fact that our jets are pretty much worn out is the compelling issue here. As good as the F-15 is, its older technology. If F-15C's did indeed do so poorly, that one must wonder how well the F-18E/F would do in the same situation? Naval Aviation is at the tip of the spear...India operates a very proficient military, you can bet the rest of the world has been paying attention to those events.

If a crisis developes with mainland China and Taiwan, rest assured maritime air superiority will be a pivotal factor. I am not so sure if I where a sailor on a CVN in that region, I would sleep well in my rack knowing that the F-18E/F was providing fleet air defense.

I also noted in that article, that in the BVR realm, both aircraft spotted each other about the same time. The APG-71, or APG-77 would offer a hudge advantage in first look first shot capability. Say what you want about the AIM-54C, but when you have a few of those saturating your RAWS gear, its pretty hard to concentrate on your tactical intentions, especially when the aircraft firing them is not even visable yet. Stealth, or standoff ability seems to be a tremendous edge...


Edited by - chadrewsky on Jul 02 2004 12:12 PM

A squadron of F-14Ds closing on a squadron of MkIs from extended BVR would obviously have a huge advantadge. Even if the AIM-54C SEALED ECCM missiles only scored a 25% hit rate you're still talking about the total destruction of the enemy before they can even shoot back(48 missiles/4= 12 hits.)

In close, and lacking the AIM-9X, the MkIs would own F-14Ds as well as they owned the Eagles.

An F-18E/F can only turn with a MkI for about a quarter of a revolution. After that all it's airspeed would be gone, and it would be a sitting duck, especially considering it's abysmal acceleration performance.


AIM-9X is the trump card here though. It doesn't really matter how fast your jet can turn if you've got a 180 degree engagement envelope. I am quite confident that a US pilot can turn his head and 'look to kill' at his opponent as fast as any other pilots on earth, lol.

AIM-9X really does take away the need for hyper agile aircraft, or so it would seem. A MkI or F-22 for all their breathtaking agility cannot hope to outturn an AIM-9X. The 9X uses IIR technology, so chaff is probably pretty worthless against it.

The Eagles in the MkI DACTS did not have AIM-9X at their disposal.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In close, and lacking the AIM-9X, the MkIs would own F-14Ds as well as they owned the Eagles. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Thats a given. First shot, seems to be more of an advantage now then ever. Even the Tomcat victories in the early 80's where the result of being fired on, evading the missile, then shooting. The USN's ROE's of fire only when fired on will place our F-18E/F's in a tremendous disadvantage, as if that jet needs any others. I am also curious about the AIM-9X. Its an all aspect ACM weapon, but I am curious to what its probability of kill is the more off boresight you get, even with this ability is it still important to get on your adversarys six or down his thoat to gain a higher probablity of kill?

F-22 gives you everything, the APG-77 will certainly give you first look, stealth will allow you to position you at your advantage, if the ROE's errode the situation into ACM, then the TV and super agility of the aircraft will give you an edge in the furball. F-22 truely is without a compromise, it can pretty much do it all. IMHO its worth the "sticker shock" The F-14's price tag of 17 million in 1972 was staggering, the F-22 should be considered just as, if not more vital, even without the Ivan Bogey Man to fear...



Edited by - chadrewsky on Jul 02 2004 6:57 PM

LOL. Here's one.....

[USAF General to F-15 pilots.....]

"...you want your F/A-22s, now's your chance to insure we get however many we need........you know what to do...."

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

There is no way an F-14D can turn with a SU-30MkI, not in a million years. I don't care if Chuck Yeager himself is the pilot.

The SU-30MkI is right now the most agile active service fighter in the world.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

Vette, while I can relate with your passion regarding the F-14D, and if the F-14D is well flown it can compare to an SU-27, in some ways. But, if the engagement against a SU-30MKI erroded into a knife fight in a phone booth acm situation, the F-14D would be at a gross disadvantage, while the Tomcat would still have ways of winning, the SU-30 would have a clear advantage in agility in that realm. I am wondering if you meant A-4's in your anology Vette?? Because dominating a F-4 in ACM is no real acomplishment for 4th generation fighter like the F-14.

I just read an article about what makes the A-4 such a kick ass ACM machine, the Skyhawk can flat scoot in that situation.



Edited by - chadrewsky on Jul 03 2004 10:46 AM

There was an article in Av-Week several months ago covering the "privatization" of red forces simulation. The company was I think exclusivly A-4s ( of varying lineage) and said Heinemans hot rod gave up very litle to the F-16 at altitude.

Just thought I'd throw this in:
F-4D sea level, light load sustains 5G at a min speed of Mach .78
F-16 simialr load does it at about Mach .4

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

THE IAF BEATING US EITHER WAS A "SMOKE AND MIRROR SHOW" FOR THE BRASS TO GET THE F-22'S OR ARE AIRCREWS NEED MORE REAL-WORLD TRAINING AGAINST THESE AIRFRAMES.

THESE IS A REAL WAKE-UP CALL,

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Goose, the SU-30MkI is just that good.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

I'VE READ WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE WROTE ABOUT IT,I'D BE A LITTLE SCARED OF THIS JET.

BUT THEN AGAIN YOU CAN HAVE THE BEST JET IN THE WORLD AND A SO SO PILOT FLYING IT AND A OLD JET WITH A "OLD STICK" MY MONEY IS ON THE "OLD STICK"JET.

PRESS TO TEST

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Given similar weights both aircraft have about the same thrust to weight ratio <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

LOL at what point does THAT happen (check the empty weights).

When the SU-30s get thrustvectoring they generally (always?) use the Saturn AL-37 with nearly 32,000lbs thrust. SU-30 pulls a full G more than the F-14 unless the pilot pumps the CG way to the rear of the F-14. The F-14 would try to beat the SU-30 at low speeds but that's where the TV would become overwhelmingly advantageouse.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomer...

You never really took the time to understand the redeeming qualities of the F-14 design. With the DFC upgrades to the aircraft, it has evolved into a very efficient low speed dogfighter. It has always had this ability when well flown, but the aircraft also has some nasty departure characteristics, that where only able to be managed effectively with the DFC upgrades. The thrust to weight ratio of a "D" with comparable internal few and ordanace load is marignaly close, the Tomcat can cary a higher fuel fraction internaly, thus would be a a "cleaner" aircraft, when you compare the wing loading and factor in the fusealage contributed lift, the F-14D is not at the gross disadvantage that you think it would be. Thrust vectoring gives the SU-30 superb agility in low speed realms, but todays F-14D is no slouch in that regard either. Tactics can close the performance gap real quick, when properly implemeted.

In close an F-14D would have no better a chance than an Eagle against a MkI.

We just got a glimpse of how well an Eagle will do against a MkI, didn't we?

I'd love to see an F-18F vs MkI DACT, but the USN probably won't do it. The MkI would eat their little stupid bug for breakfast.

Of course these sims put us into positions we'd never be to begin with, and they do not show the effect of ECM either.

With an EA-6B jamming for those Eagles and operating under AWACS control they'd be quite capable BVR with their AMRAAMs methinx.

Then again i was but a grunt, wtf do i know anyway?

LOL

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

I am just curious of the Ruskies have improved their fuel tank design...If am not mistaken older Soviet Bloc fighters where very vulnerable to proximity warhead explosions such as those from an AIM-54C.

How does the upgraded radars on the F-15C's compare to the APG-71 on the 14D's? Even without the AMRAAM I still like the 14D's chances in the BVR arena, better than that of the F-18E/F with the AMRAAM...IMHO

Either way you want to take this article, one thing is for certain, air superiority is no longer an exclusive US asset with our current generation of fighters, though it is remarkable that our 30 year old designs are now just being challenged, we need the F-22, and the USN certainly needs something better than the F-18E/F to mantain maritime air dominance against such potential foes that have the ability to field force numbers of jets such as the SU-30 MKI...

What sort of acm agility is the F-35 supposed to posses?



Edited by - chadrewsky on Jul 06 2004 4:21 PM

The F-35C should have no problem outturning any current USAF fighter if i recall Stress's own informal analysis data he sent me before.

Even at it's current overweight status it exceeds the T/W ratio of most current fighters, many by a wide margin. If they get the weight where it should be it will have an awesome T/W ratio.

The APG-63(V)2 is an AESA design, beyond that i have no idea how good it is. It is newer technology than the APG-70/71, and has a phased array emmiter, so i suppose it's pretty damned good.

Mudd?



"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

Hey Rick, can ya post a link for this article please?

Thanx.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"

Ronald Reagan

Chad, numbers speak louder than fanaticism.
F-14D .with half fuel 4 Sparrows and 4 Winders TTW is 1.027
SU-30MKI with half fuel 4 Alamos and 4 Archers TTW is 1.22

20% is hardly "marginaly close" if it is then consider the F-14D is 20% faster than the SH so I guess they are "marginaly close" in speed.

The Flankers utilise the same body lift concept as F-14, and both develope great drag because of it, the FlankerMKI does it while pulling an extra G over F-14. Just face it, the Tommy would get it's clock cleaned just as bad or worse than F-15 which would have a TTW of 1.16.
As for the the SH vs. MKI, who knows? they should be close in the first turn as the SH pulls up stops and torques around, but after that it would be a smokin' hole too. The lesson is simple DONT SLOW DOWN to fight the Flankers, and dont fight a rigged exercise like this one seems to be. We NEED to SLEP a good percentage of the F-15 fleet.

I've "heard" (and that's all) that the F-35 is supposed to have comparable performance to the block 50/52 F-16s, wheather that's a reality or just a goal I dont know.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.