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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2005, 20:39 
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 22:04
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Sir,

Please forgive my lack of protocal for this question. I have never gotten the impression that Maj Schmidt had leadership training. My question is nothing more is this a personal defence mechanism for the Maj or a leadership cultural chasim between the army and the AF.



Schmidt haunted, not sorry
Families of dead soldiers angry pilot not taking responsibility
By The Canadian Press

The U.S. fighter pilot who dropped the bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan says he is haunted by memories of the incident and the suffering of the victims' families, but he still can't say he's sorry.

Maj. Harry Schmidt, in his first major interview since the 2002 incident, told a U.S. publication that not a day goes by that he doesn't think of the families of the dead Canadian soldiers.

But Schmidt says he was a victim of circumstances beyond his control.

"I was the wingman," the former pilot tells Chicago Magazine in its April issue.

"I was not in charge of making decisions. It was, 'Shut up. Hang on and say, Yes, sir.' I was the lowest person on the totem pole. I was, in effect, along for the ride."

The attack killed Pte. Richard Green, Pte. Nathan Smith, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer and Sgt. Marc Leger. They were the first Canadians to die in combat since the Korean War.

Eight others, all members of the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, were injured.

In a reprimand from the U.S. Air Force, Schmidt, an Illinois National Guardsman, was accused of acting "shamefully" and exhibiting "arrogance and lack of flight discipline" during the deadly incident.

He was grounded and fined $5,000.

Schmidt appeared stoic during the inquiry into the incident, but his wife, Lisa, says she thought he was suicidal.

"I was afraid he was going to kill himself," Lisa Schmidt says in the magazine article.

Schmidt's personal anguish provides little solace for relatives of the four victims.

Joyce Clooney, grandmother of Pte. Richard Green, said Tuesday she would like Schmidt to stop defending his actions and say he's sorry.

"He should have made a public apology to the families," Clooney said in an interview from her home in Bridgewater.

"It would have meant a lot more coming from him than the president apologizing to the prime minister. It wasn't the prime minister's children or grandchildren who were killed. His problem is he always blames everyone else for what happened."

Lloyd Smith, father of Pte. Nathan Smith, said he's indifferent to what Schmidt does "any time now or in the future."

"I think he had his chance, and he elected not to take advantage of it at the time of the trial and shortly after the incident happened," Smith said from his Tatamagouche home Tuesday evening.

"He's made his bed. He'll have to lie in it," he said. "To look for forgiveness, he'll have to look to the big guy upstairs.

"We're just trying to move on with our lives and put this incident behind us and do the best we can to go forward."

Smith said from what he has heard through testimony, Schmidt was responsible for his actions on that fateful day.

"He was given good sound advice by traffic controllers and ground controllers and he elected to ignore that advice.

"He was given all the advice he could be given under the conditions . . . and he gambled. He rolled the dice."

Smith said an apology from Schmidt three years after the fact would be cold comfort.

"He's not showing a whole lot of remorse," he said.

Richard and Claire Leger, parents of Sgt. Marc Leger, told CTV the U.S. pilot's comments are too little, too late.

"I felt suicidal and I'm pretty darn sure that all of us felt suicidal," Claire Leger told Canada AM. "So welcome to the gang. . . . We're all stuck in the same boat."

Richard Leger added that Schmidt would do well to remember his role in their son's death.

"He has never really helped any of the families. If he did anything, he made it worse."

Schmidt blames the bombing, on the morning of April 18, 2002, on "the fog of war," saying he mistook the Canadian gunfire for an attack from Taliban fighters.

The pilot says superiors never told him the Canadians would be conducting live-fire exercises near Kandahar airport that night.

As well, Schmidt says he was flying under difficult conditions on an 11-hour mission pumped up on amphetamines called "go pills."

He tells Chicago Magazine that the fight to defend himself, to explain his actions to the government, the military and the people of Canada and the United States, has inhibited his own grieving process.

"I don't know if I have been able to fully grieve," he says. "Because I was in a position where I had to protect my family from the start."

Schmidt was originally charged with manslaughter and aggravated assault, which could have resulted in a jail term, but the charges were reduced to dereliction of duty.

Maj. William Umbach, the flight leader, was also charged with assault and manslaughter.

Those charges were dismissed last summer and he was allowed to retire from the Air National Guard, as he had requested.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 08:25 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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IMHO I wasnt there and Do not know the reality that these two experianced during that Event. I cannot pass a judgement on these guys. I feel the U.S. GOVT. Provided the Canadian citizens Justice.

I learned long ago that Accountability and Integrity are taught in the Home as a Child and that the military service simply adds Consequence to your decision process.

The way I evaluate this event and as a Professionaly trained Military Pilot. Is that these two were a unit. They above all are ultimately responsible for all actions regardless of out come. It is Integrity and accountability with the little Silent Witness (HUD/GUN/TGT POD tape) and Comms recordings that layout the circumstances. THose Circumstances convicted them for their actions. It was very clear.

They were distinctly advised not to release the ordnance, and they continued to prosecute the targeting. They had a means to leave the area to allow the deconfliction process to add clarity to the situation. They chose together as a unit to prosecute an attack. This attack Ultimately led to the loss of life of these Canadian citizens.

In my personal Reflection, had I been a participent in this event, I would of changed my posture to an observation one and offset out of the area and continued the Comms/Deconfliction process. This is What all American Military pilots are trained to do. If we do not get accountability for the ordnance release we do not Deploy. This means someones initials are etched on the bomb. It will forever ride on their Collar.

IN Short this event was not a pressing Self Defence issue or Battlefield need for Target prosecution. Always best to return home with ordnace that can be used for legitimate targets.

Simply put. I would mark the Location and save it for the Intel Weenies and Operations staff for followup.And or retasking should the out come indeed be deemed as an actionable target. Their are other flights out their "Vul'ing" as well as a follow up that will relieve them at the end of theirs. MY thoughts are that they operated independently of Theater forces, and Greed for blood pressed them into action.

What I am gathering from reading your article is that Maj. Harry Schmidt lacks the Humility and indeference to accept that they had failed and to take accountability for the outcome. I understand his plight with protecting his career and the weight of this incident on him and his family.



My self personally, I would have violated the AF rules about personal contact to Fratriced Victims. And stood in front of them as a man and appologised openly. becasue in my mind. Personal accountability as an Adult is what bases our Moral Standing and Honor. I would done this wether I felt I was justified or unjustified of my actions.

What he lacks is Respect for the Vicitims and humanity. I would never allow him to fly on my wing. And the US GOVT felt the same way, That is why he has no Flight status today.

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.

Edited by - mrmudd on Mar 17 2005 07:30 AM


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 08:55 
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Mudd we all know that fratricide is gonna regrettably happen in war, history has born this out. But am I correct in hearing that these guys pursued the attack even after being told not to. As such this was not a mistake in support of troops where bomb fell to close or just went dumb.

What were the consequences for these two? Manslaughter?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 09:04 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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OOE, I sincerly do not Beleive their is a subculture of Army Vs Aviation mindset for these accountability issues.

The nature of warfare has evolved greatly politiclly. 60 Years ago we would send Bombers against Civillians Firebombing total cities, to destroy an Enemies logistical Capability. This is something totally unacceptable today.


Leadership Wise, I seriously do not believe the AF is at fault for this incedent. The fault for this incedent fully rests on the Two men that prosecuted the attack. The ammount of Attack Protocol Flags that popped up and clearly presented themselves clearly proved How poorly they performed. The US Military Aviation Community had Provided them the "Procedurial Tool Bag" to deal with the event. They chose not to use the safeguards they were taught.


AS Far as finding publications and explaining them here in detail would not be something I would not be able to do. This is a Topic that requires the expertise of a JAG officer that deals with the legal Issues.

Possibly one of the other pilots here or those qualified to speak on this can shed more insight to operational Guidlines in force today as they involve with their occupational Specialty.

I can only provide my insight as a Experianced Combat Aviator. I think you will find the rest of us in the Mil Aviation community could only provide the same synopsis of this event in relation to Personal Accountability in warfare.



"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 09:15 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
Posts: 2802
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Mudd we all know that fratricide is gonna regrettably happen in war, history has born this out. But am I correct in hearing that these guys pursued the attack even after being told not to. As such this was not a mistake in support of troops where bomb fell to close or just went dumb.

What were the consequences for these two? Manslaughter?


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

The pilots Claim that they were acting in self defence because of the sighted Ground fire taking place. At night. on the topography. I can understand the impression that was felt and observed by them. The Canadian forces wee on a training range (not sure to the type of weapons or how many were activly employing ordnance on the range) But i suspect that it created the signature that when observed from Flight Level could be miss identified as Anti Aircraft weaponry.

The Pilots did request permission to attack the area observing the range (pilots did not know it was a training site). They were ordered not to deploy ordnace numerous times by the controlling entities. LAte the employed ordnance when they felt they were under attack. I also understand those Controlling agencies the pilots were communicating with didnot know it was a training site, and they also did not know who was in the area. This added to the "Fog of War". What really matters is the fact that the pilots did not wait until a satisfactory classification presented itself. Again the pilots believed they were acting in self defense.

The Courts Martial did directly seek out a manslaughter Conviction. As far as the Uniform Code of military justice rules and consequences for this type of conviction. I am not up on the facts as to what the punishments would be. I cant make a comment on that.


This is about all I can say about the event, again I wasnt there. My opinions are only my personal observations, and dont represent those of the Government.



"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.

Edited by - mrmudd on Mar 17 2005 08:29 AM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 10:30 
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 22:04
Posts: 220
MrMudd,

Thank you, Sir, for your response. I was not presuming to pass judgement. The two men will have to live with demons for the rest of their lives.

I was just seeking some understanding of their reactions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2005, 10:39 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
Posts: 2802
SO are the Victims, and unfortunately no matter the outcome, They lost their family and will never be satisfied with the actions of all parties involved, The Military institution, and The evolving Law governing warfare.

It is one of many Blackballs that all military men must carry in the pursuit of their Job. It makes it more difficult for us to carry out Defense of a Nation when Individuals choose False self preservation over the common good of the nation and those that serve in the military.

I am dissapointed in the way it negatively reflects my Country and branch of service.

War is a Tragic waste of human Life.

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.

Edited by - mrmudd on Mar 17 2005 09:41 AM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2005, 12:05 
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Joined: 08 Dec 2002, 10:36
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Again the pilots believed they were acting in self defense.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

As can be expected, since then, the ROE on "self-defense" employment has been clarified. Not necessarily expanded or made more restrictive, just clarified in a manner similiar to what you discussed regards "fight or flight"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2005, 15:37 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Again the pilots believed they were acting in self defense.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

As can be expected, since then, the ROE on "self-defense" employment has been clarified. Not necessarily expanded or made more restrictive, just clarified in a manner similiar to what you discussed regards "fight or flight"


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>



My apologies to any one that has taken offense to the way I feel.

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.

Edited by - mrmudd on Mar 18 2005 3:44 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2005, 02:04 
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Hog Driver

Joined: 08 Dec 2002, 10:36
Posts: 593
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Again the pilots believed they were acting in self defense.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

As can be expected, since then, the ROE on "self-defense" employment has been clarified. Not necessarily expanded or made more restrictive, just clarified in a manner similiar to what you discussed regards "fight or flight"

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

My apologies to any one that has taken offense to the way I feel.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

No offense taken here, Mudd (if this was intended for me). I simply meant to illustrate that some higher ups I guess felt that there was a loophole in the ROE as it was at the time......IMHO, likely that the "self-defense" portion might have been somehow unclear, or might have involved too much latitude....not really sure since I'm not them. But in any event, shortly following that incident, a change came out for that portion of the ROE, which is why I feel the above might be true of how it came about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2005, 13:06 
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It was ment for all those that feel slighted by my comments.


Sometimes......Self Defense seems to be thrown around as a "scape goat"

I seriously dont believe their excuse for the way they conducted that mission.

Self Defense is always the loop-hole to get around a ROE. Even if it is a Lie.

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2005, 18:32 
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Hog Driver

Joined: 08 Dec 2002, 10:36
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It was ment for all those that feel slighted by my comments.


Sometimes......Self Defense seems to be thrown around as a "scape goat"

I seriously dont believe their excuse for the way they conducted that mission.

Self Defense is always the loop-hole to get around a ROE. Even if it is a Lie.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I know what you mean. I'll tell you though, their situation surely weighs in the back of the mind, rightly or wrongly. My last time overseas, I was in a situation north of Ramadi where there were enemy spotted on one of the many islands along the length of the Euphrates. We had just come west from Al Taqaddam/Fallujah on our normal patrol this night, and approaching Ramadi from the west, spotted tracer fire north of the highway along the river, north of town. Gave the GFAC a call for that area, who was located at the Ramadi base, and he told me they had a situation and to proceed to the scene. Showed up there with the wingman, and we could see tracer fire coming from the west bank and striking the southernmost of four small islands in the river. On the east bank was a neighborhood, while on the northernmost of the four islands was a lighted structure, appearing to be a residence of some kind. Keep in mind, this is all under gogs since we had no targeting pods at that time, and it's dark as hell, so it's tough to see anything in great detail, since the GFAC didn't want us dropping illum. The FAC (back at the Ramadi base about 8 miles away) passed that there was personnel spotted on the island and were being taken under fire from troops on the west bank. He then cleared my flight for a gun pass from south to north and to contact XX on XX freq, and to expedite. Mind you, this is about under 2 minutes from showing up, and I still hadn't established where the friendlies weren't, only where they were..supposedly. Give a call to the ground team to get some further info, and at the time, notice that their fire from the west bank is striking structures on the east bank, not aimed mind you, but the stuff missing the island is landing there, and there's no return fire from the island. So we tell the ground guys to check fire, and ask them if they're only on the west bank. They come back with an affirmative, and clarify that they're on the south side of the island, 70 metres south....which would put them in the water, and near the southern side of the island. WTF? They reply that they're only on the west bank, 70 metres from the southern tip of the island. Again, makes no sense and is in my line of fire if I'm wanted to be in from the south. GFAC comes up and asks if the gun pass has been made yet, and I reply no, I'm still trying to unfuck exactly where the friendlies are and aren't, since I'm getting two different stories, plus the run-in heading assigned will put rounds long into the area of the structure on the northern island. What is it, is it friendly? He replied he didn't know, but just don't shoot at it. I had to quickly explain the concept of long rounds and richochets, but finally just asked if the friendlies on the west bank are under any fire or immediate threat, since there seemed to be no return fire coming their way. They replied no, so I told the GFAC we're not going to put down rounds just yet until we can get some stuff sorted out. Some 15Es pushed our way and we worked them into the target to relieve us, since fuel was getting low. And I finally handed over the AO to them. Point is, I didn't want to put down rounds and either hit friendlies or hit civilians and be the next "that guy". And I'd be lying if I didn't admit that the Tarnak Farms/F-16 case was rearing it's head in my mind.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2005, 03:56 
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Weve all been their in some Fashion, I had a Bomb Skip and Go into a Apt Structure. Collateral Board Didnt fault Me. The SF Guys were actually Happy. They were in the area Hunting Down a Sniper that was shooting kids and women. (unknown to me) I was In the Area to Hit a Suspected Comms/Facility/antennae. adjacent 400 Meters up a ridge. Building Collapses they BDA, Find that The Apt Structure was actually a partial billeting for troops and followed the cables up the ridge where the antennae was still standing. Bomb went Long and Followed the apex of the ridge and took out the Troops. (they never knew they were there). It was a non uniformed force. Kind of a terror squad of some sort. That were part of the Ethnic fighting.

But in my mind it never excused the The other "Civillians" that were now under rubble. (it was never my intended target).

...The point im getting too, Is its not about ending up being "that guy" or not being "that guy" It is bound to happen to any of us right or wrong...despite the circumstances.

..Its about Moral Restraint and staying focused on working the issue. This is where i have the problem with "Those Guys".

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.


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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2005, 23:12 
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Gentlemen and Sirs,

This has been enlightening. My apologies for thinking like a bellycrawler but I thought only us are exposed up front and personal.

Again, I do not presume to judge but it feels damned good that you flyboys feel same pressure as us bellycrawlers.


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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2005, 08:11 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Gentlemen and Sirs,

This has been enlightening. My apologies for thinking like a bellycrawler but I thought only us are exposed up front and personal.

Again, I do not presume to judge but it feels damned good that you flyboys feel same pressure as us bellycrawlers.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I wouldnt fault your thoughts or for being a Canadian citizen rallying behind the issue. You are a Professional Military officer and have unique insite to the Military art.

I wouldnt think so much on the pressure of the Job, I believe it comes back to looking at humanity and respect for human life. There is a Reason an "Officer" Commands an Aircraft, It is the Single Handidly , Most lethal and destructive force on the battlefield, A Pure force multiplyer. With that lethality comes accountability and resposebility for its employment.

The Problem is war itself and those that shoulder it, All persons are capable of failure at any specific point in their " Free Agency" No matter how much an institution invests into a person, it will always fall back to that persons root core of how they view the world around them and humanity.

IF that individual is moraly decrepit. This is what happens. From the union worker assemblying the weapon, to the PVT-Commander in chief that weilds it in action. Their is no differnce, The institution simply does its best to evolve the training to reach those that fail on moral standing.

The Institution didnt Fail them, But it did have to bring more solution and education to the Military masses, to reach the unknowns of the human Psyche.

"RickUSN-

That was intelligent and useful Mudd.

But it certainly is what Ive come to expect.

Mindless babbling with no intent to either enlighten or inform.


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