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"Exactly that kind of thinking is what lead to the USAF & USN almost getting their collective asses handed to them over Southeast Asia."

Exactly.

I would point out however that the two fights that USN F-14s did get into were both close range knife fights accomplished with heaters.

<b>There are two kinds of soldiers.
Snipers...and targets.</b>
<img src="http://www.creedmoorsports.com/images/SA9121-M21.JPG" border=0>

I'll point out that there is at this time exactly ONE SU-35 in the world to the best of my knowledge ( there WERE two but they converted one to the SU-37 then crashed it lol ). The F-35C wont have much trouble defeating the SU-35/37 if they ever were to tussle.
Flanker pilots will die before they have a clue what's going on.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

Edited by - boomer on Dec 02 2005 5:58 PM

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomer, the Su-37 was a one-off, converted back to Su-30 standard, then crashed. Current Su-30MKI's (India) and MKK's (China) are to Su-35/37 standard. And you still haven't addressed what happens when a dickhead politician sets the ROE to visual ID before engaging.

Admit nothing...
Deny everything...
Make counter-accusations.

That is exactly what I am getting at.

F-4 Phantom II's in both the USN and USAF had the ability to eliminate air to air threats BVR with the AIM-7 Sparrow. That missile was designed for a down the throat BVR shot, from what I read that is the best parameter for that AAM. ROE's dictated that our war fighters forgoe their BVR advantage and mix it up with Mig-17's down and dirty. And guess what, the most effective US Fighter in terms of exchanges ratios in that forgettable conflict was "obsolete" F-8U Crusader.

Like Snipe said, 3 of the 4 USN F-14 kills in the 1980's where with the Sidewinder after the Libyan pilots either fired first, or positioned themselves to fire first. The F-14's could have bagged them anytime they wanted, but ROE's dictated a visual plus a hostile act, even the more liberal "Reagan Rules of Engagement" stipulated this.

Now in todays climate of needing to avoid blue on blue (fraticide) incidents, plus the fact that we always want to be the good guys, you can bet that unless we are in a full blown war; that F-22's and F-35's will have to not only sacrifice their radar immunity, but also sacrifice their tremendous BVR advantage when facing the enemey. That is the reason that tactical fighters must still retain the ability to mix it up with the best anyone has to offer. The F-22 merges all of the above into an "air dominance" system, which can promise supremecy regardless of the ROE's.



Edited by - chadrewsky on Dec 02 2005 9:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Boomer, the Su-37 was a one-off, converted back to Su-30 standard, then crashed. Current Su-30MKI's (India) and MKK's (China) are to Su-35/37 standard. And you still haven't addressed what happens when a dickhead politician sets the ROE to visual ID before engaging.

Admit nothing...
Deny everything...
Make counter-accusations.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

MKI is the only version with SU-37s thrust vectoring ( MKK doesnt have it )and the TV is part of a spiral developement program that may or may not get fully implemented, Sukhoi isnt even offering it as an option anymore unless the buyer REALLY wants it. Without TV the F-35s will be, at the very worst, on even footing with the Flanker family. Throw in helmet mounted cueing on both planes with the higher IR output of the Flankers and you still wont have much of a dogfight. BTW the SU-30s are heavier and not as manueverable as the 27s, they would be doomed against the F-35C and at best an even match for the F-35A.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

BTW there is an SU-30MKI and an SU-30MK1 and apparently NOT quite the same aircraft, I'll try and find the differences later.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomer, just out of curiosity. Do you think that "dogfighting" is an archiac activity, that you do not see happening with modern fighters.

It is a technique and a tool, but it's a tool where one mistake by the pilot can turn a vastly superior aircraft into a smoking hole and therefore should be avoided whenever possible. One missplaced "G grunt" and you can be dead meat. You can take all the guarantees of super manuverability in a dogfight and throw them out the window if even the slightest thing goes wrong with the machine or pilot.

Hit them from medium to moderate range ( preferably while they are still on the ground ) if something goes awry you at least have the option of running away or dragging him to another flight of friendlies to meet his doom.
The Brits were/are wrestling with having a gun on the Europhoon so I assume they have looked at a LOT of data, simulations and exercises. I personally think you HAVE to have a gun just in case ( as I have stated before in this thread ) but it's not likely to be needed.

I dont attach any romance to the dogfight as so many simmers and wannabees do. It is NOT a chivalrous battle between Knights Of The Sky, it is death and blood and fire. Kill him first with a long spear cause he WILL kill you if you give him the slightest chance. Dont take the chance of getting "face shot" at the merge before you get to use your wonder machine to dazzle the bad guy. Kill him, go home, see your buds, buy your crew a round of frostys, see your gal and report for duty the next time the bell rings. For the U.S. risking a dogfight is even more dubious given the fact that even in the bad ole days of Nam the MiGs wern't going after our ground troops they were just hoping to attrit our air assets to lessen the pounding we were giving them up north. IF we had never fought they MIGHT have tried air to ground attacks but then THEY would have been the bomb laden sluggish opponants and would have been very unsuccessfull.
Air combat is like any other form of combat, if you can achieve the goal without getting yourself hurt DO IT.

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

There are so many variants of the Flanker it makes the head spin.

MK, MKK, MK1, MKI, and blah, blah, blah.

It is most confusing, lol...

<b>There are two kinds of soldiers.
Snipers...and targets.</b>
<img src="http://www.creedmoorsports.com/images/SA9121-M21.JPG" border=0>

RGR that!! When I was researching them a year or more ago there were like 20 versions!!!

A 9mm MAY expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink!

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.